Smokeless loads for .44-40 and .45CS

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

For what it's worth, the cannelure on most modern brass will not stop a bullet from telescoping back into the case.

 

Ler's talk about telescoping for a moment. Most think that recoil tends to push a bullet back into the case. In practice this is really not the case. With a rifle with a tubular magazine, every time a round is stripped out of the magazine the magazine spring slams all the rest that were left in the magazine backwards. The action of the magazine spring is more extreme than the recoil of a relatively light round in a heavy rifle. So when the column of cartridges gets slammed backwards, they come to a sudden stop as they reach the limit of motion. That is what tends to telescope bullets back into cases in our game, not recoil. In a revolver, it is just the opposite. Recoil will tend to make bullets jump forward.

 

Anyway, the 38-40 on the right in this photo has a sizeable cannelure. It will stop a bullet from telescoping back into the case. The one in the center of the photo has a more modest cannelure. It may or may not stop telescoping.

 

 

 

 

 

Modern brass usually has no cannelure at all. If it does, it is a lightly embossed pattern on the brass that will not keep a bullet in place at all. That lightly embossed pattern is useless for preventing a bullet from telescoping backwards.

 

For those of us who shoot Black Powder this is not a concern, because the compressed charge of powder in the case prevents the bullet from moving backwards. However if you are going to be loading 44-40, with its thin brass, with Smokeless, you need a very firm crimp to prevent the bullets from moving backwards from the action of the magazine spring in the magazine. I have a bunch of 44-40 dummies that have no powder or primers. I use them for various things. I can only cycle them though a rifle a limited number of times because even with the firmest crimp I can form WITH MY LEE FACTORY CRIMP DIE, they will start to slip back into the case after a few times through the action.

 

This is the photo Savvy Jack was referring to illustrating what can happen if you do not have your dies adjusted properly for 44-40. As the case rises up to 'swallow' the bullet, the mouth of the case butts against the underside of the crimp groove before the case has completed its upward motion. So the brass crumples below the bullet. This does not happen with more robust cases such as 45 Colt because the thicker Colt brass will bite into the bullet and not crumple down below the bullet. The fix for bullets crumpling below the bullet with 44-40 or 38-40 brass is to seat the bullet a hair higher, so the case mouth never quite reaches the underside of the top of the crimp groove.

 

 

 

 

 

For what it's worth, on the rare occasion I load 44-40 with Smokeless, I put 7.5 grains of Unique under a 200 grain bullet.

 

And the firmest crimp I can manage.

 

[Trailrider #896]

2 hours ago, Savvy Jack said:

Unlike cartridges like the 45 Colt and 38/357 magnums, the 44-40 crimp is not as "hard" of a crimp to hold the bullet from getting pushed back into the case, "telescoping".  

Telescoping
Do not forget the crimp design on the bullet. Lead bullets designed with a deep crimp, but not as deep as a 44 magnum or 357 magnum, groove won't have this problem. Typically a crimp can be formed from roll crimping the case mouth into soft lead bullets that do not have a roll crimp groove like the Lyman 427098 and Hornady's lead Cowboy bullets. The Reeding Profile Crimp actually somewhat crimps and "squeezes" the case to form with the bullet, forming desired tight neck retention. The case mouth is forced into the lead preventing telescoping of the bullet back down into the case. The mild roll crimps don't work well with Winchester and Remington 44-40 jacketed bullets. This is why manufactures put a canular on the case at the bottom of the bullet to keep the bullet from telescoping down into the case from the magtube spring retention. This is where the Redding Profile Crimp works magic mimicking Winchester's concave crimp and not "damaging" it with the LFCD. Roll crimps work well with lead bullet crimp grooves such as the commercial 200gr Magma "Cowboy".

 Magma's 200gr "Cowboy"

 

44 Winchester Center Fire

My RCBS .44-40 sizing die (NOT Cowboy) reduces the case neck diameter somewhat smaller than the bullet diameter.  I use an appropriate diameter expander plug (in this case, because I use .430" dia. bullets, I use the plug from a .44 Magnum die set).  I expand only enough to allow the bullet to seat, but leaves the neck smaller in diameter than the bullet. This gives the cartridge a "wasp waist" below the bullet. I then give it a good, firm roll crimp, using the same seating/crimping die from the original .44-40 set.  But doesn't this excessively work the case? I don't know.  After at least 20 reloads of Winchester brass, the only ones I have lost are due to tall grass swallowing the ejected cases (and some ones early on that caught the case mouth on the ejector slot in the breach end of the barrel of my Rossi 92 (corrected with a file)!

[Savvy Jack]

From my custom 20" MGM barrel I use for strain gauge testing...

In my testings, 6.4gr of Trail Boss produced 7,224psi while a caseload of 9.3gr (bullet sits firmly on top of the powder) (see Hodgdon Reduced Loads Formula).

I don't have it in front of me but the 6.4gr in my rifle seemed to produce 1,100fps while my revolver produced 800fps. 

 

The 9.3gr produced 1,250fps @ 15,000psi!!!! Buffalo Bore's 44-40 "Heavy" was set as my Control at 11,300psi and is claimed to be within SAAMI's 11,000psi MAP

I have also tested 40gr by weight of Swiss FFFG with an .18"-.20" compression in original unheadstamped Winchester early 1880's semi-balloonhead brass and created 1,373fps @ 14,285psi. Same load using Goex FFFG produced 1,356fps @ 12,648psi. Those same loads using other semi-balloonhead brass produced 10,000 - 11,000 psi @ 1,250fps while modern Starline brass but with a tad bit more compression produced only 8,000-9,000psi. Modern factory hunting ammo produced 7,000psi while factory cowboy loads produced less than 6,500psi.

These results leads me to believe that early 44-40 ballistics created 15%-25% psi than today's SAAMI recommendations. 

 

Again, these are my results and I could be wrong....but at least they are consistent and appear reasonable.

[Savvy Jack]

Driftwood,
Years ago, the only problems I have actually had with telescoping had been with Winchester and Remington's 44-40 JSP bullets. As we most all know the diameter on these are much smaller than typical. Winchester does not use a roll crimp for these bullets, they use a "horseshoe" type crimp. The Lee Factory Crimp Die is similar but rather than the horseshoe curve, the LFCD "flattens" the crimp. The Redding Profile crimp closely replicates the Horseshoe crimp. Dies that resize to the smaller diameter are a must when handloading these bullets. Using these jacketed bullets seams to be where a canular is used by manufactures.

Note the taper design of the bullet. The crimp is actually on the taper and can slip if a poor crimp is applied.
 

Quote

Winchester Bullets from Midway USA

Maybe you can explain this better with the correct terminology!!!! 

have some photos but don't have them handy at the moment.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Savvy Jack

 

I do not know what a Hoseshoe crimp is. Perhaps you could explain?

 

This is the bullet I have been loading in 44-40 for quite a few years now, the Big Lube Mav-Dutchman 200 grain bullet.  The photo shows the same bullet, both unlubed and lubed. The focus of the photo is not great, but you can see the crimp groove on this bullet. It is not huge, but it is there.

 

 

 

 

 

This is the same photo, with different lighting, showing the 44-40 round and a 45 Colt round with the 250 grain PRS Big Lube bullet. Again, the bullets are shown both lubed and unlubed. You can see the crimp groove on the 45. It has been my experience that the thicker brass of the 45 case, about .012 at the case mouth will dig into the bullet if a strong roll crimp is applied. I do not own any 45 Colt rifles, but I would suspect this bullet would not telescope in a lever gun because the crimp is very strong

 

 

 

 

 

Here are a couple of my 44-40 rounds, loaded into Starline brass. My Lee Factory Crimp die 'smooshes' the brass into the crimp groove. It does not roll the crimp into the groove, the crimp tends to flow and follow the shape of the crimp groove. 

 

 

 

 

 

Interestingly enough, I load my 45 Colt rounds without a separate crimp die, just a standard RCBS 3 die set. I seat the bullet and crimp in one step, the way the dies were designed to be used. The RCBS seating/crimp die puts a nice rounded crimp onto the brass holding the bullet in place firmly. Sorry, I do not have a photo of my 45 crimps, because they have never given me any trouble.

 

For a number of years I seated my 44-40 bullets in one step with a standard RCBS 3 die set, seating and crimping in one step. So it can be done. The reason I started using the LFC die is because when I changed over to Black Powder, the Big Lube bullets have a lot of lube on them, which can be seen in the previous photos. Some of the lube always smooshes out of the lube groove when the rounds are being crimped. A little bit often migrates into the crimp groove. With the sturdy .012 thick 45 cases, this was not a problem, any lube that migrated into the crimp groove was displaced when the thick brass crimp was formed. However I found that with the thinner (.007) thick 44-40 brass, the standard crimping die was not able to force the lube out of the crimp groove. That is why I started using the Lee FCD with my BP 44-40 rounds. The constricting action of the die is enough to force any stray lube out of the crimp groove. I do the same when loading 38-40, which also has thin brass at the case mouth.

 

This solution has worked for me, since I always load 44-40 and 38-40 with Black Powder, which prevents the bullets from telescoping back into the case when they are slammed by the magazine spring.

 

As I stated, this crimp is not enough to keep the bullets from telescoping into the case with my dummy rounds. If I was going to be loading much 44-40 with Smokeless, I would perhaps look into a different crimp die, but Smokeless 44-40 is not much of a concern to me these days.

 

 

P.S. I size all my 44-40 bullets to .428. This allows them to be used in rifles with .429 rifling groove diameter as well as those rifles that have .427 rifling groove diameter. I have some of each.

[Savvy Jack]

Driftwood, when I get home I will dig out my photos. I would certainly like to know the correct terminology... :-)

 

I am all out of the Mav Dutch bullets and I sold my mold a while back but I still have some loaded up with Trail Boss....of which I just shot some yesterday at 265 yards with 6.4gr of Trail Boss.

Pending my application (bullet design, diameter etc) I use...

 

Lyman 310 Dies

Lee Dies

RCBS Cowboy Dies

LFCD - I no longer use

Redding Profile  Die

[Savvy Jack]

Driftwood, this is what I have....expect edited corrections!

 

 

Cartridge on left replicated the 44-40 prototype cartridges

 

[Savvy Jack]

Here are three factory 44-40 cartridges and four handloads with different crimps.  I prefer roll crimps for bullets with a roll crimp type groove like Oregon Trail's 200gr Laser Cast. I prefer the Redding Profile on both 44-40 profile lead bullets with little to no crimp groove and Winchester JSP bullets. For soft cast bullets with little to no crimp groove like the 427098, I like to use a roll crimp that digs into the soft lead. For bullets like Hornady's 240gr and 200gr lead bullets with no crimp groove, I am forced to use the LFCD.

For other jacketed bullet that the Profile crimp does not fit, I use a roll crimp or LFCD pending how wel each holds up. I also use a full .427 neck resize with the Lee resize die if needed.

The Redding Profile Crimp Die gives what would appear to be a "horseshoe" type curved crimp. I had forgot that it was the Redding Die I was referring to until I got home. The Unknown Die in the above photos also gives a somewhat "curved" crimp. Note the bullet photo with the different groove designs. The one bullet has a somewhat "curved" groove.

 

 

The damage from the Lee Factory Crimp Die can be seen along the case mouth as vertical lines. This is caused by over crimping and the brass working in between the metal fingers.

[Duster Tom]

Anyone using a 165 Gr bullet with Trail Boss?