Marshal Hangtree Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I've decided to load a batch of smokeless for a change, so I picked up a pound of Trail Boss this morning to experiment with. I run .44-40 in my '66 and .45 Cowboy Special in my revolvers, with 200gr RNFP cast boolits for each. What would be a good load for each caliber if I'm wanting to try reduced recoil "cowboy" loads. Thanks y'all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G W Wade Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Been using 5.0 Promo with 200gr lead. Not sure how light you want to try, but I am happy. GW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Man Graybeard Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I have been using 3 grr of trail boss in 45 cowboy special Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I have fooled with 44-40 for CAS. My firearm was a Commemorative '94 Winchester. A 200 gr RNFP LEE is what I used, and Unique (Universal). Around 9.5 gr gives the best accuracy, but it is not a Cowboy load. I dented and bent the targets at my first meet. It is a legal rifle load, about 1200 fps, but a bit much for the game. When the charge was lowered accuracy went down the toilet, and real small charges had erratic ignition. Perhaps a different primer may have helped. I turned to Red Dot, and used Alliant data, 5.9 gr max. I settled on 5.5 gr, and a CCI 300 primer. I didn't delve that deeply into this project, but I did try some other powders as well. (Trail Boss, Titegroup, and 231) They didn't work well for me. > The challenge is that the 44-40 is a rather large capacity case, and 200 gr is light bullet, and you are trying to load at low velocity. Best success comes with a fairly flaky low density high nitro glycerin content powder that the flame can propagate through consistently. If you are loading for a revolver, I'd suggest soft swaged bullets. BTW the Unique load comes from Waters book, 10 gr, "best load for strong revolvers". (Bullet 427098) The LEE bullet is similar, for smokeless, and it has a crimping groove. > All my rifles were large groove, > 429. Some 44-40's are smaller 426 > 427 from what I've read. In which case I'd try 427666. I have that mold as well, it casts too small for good accuracy in a rifle with 429 grooves. Shallow rifling doesn't help either. Shallow grooves and slow twist are a Black Powder thing, IMNSHO. Winchester Cowboy Action Lead Flat Nose ammunition works well. It uses a 225 gr soft lead bullet, and app 4.5 gr of powder. Advertised 750 fps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Drifter Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I have a 8 lb jug of Unique but have not used it for cowboy loads. OLG probably can help. He uses Unique for everything including toothpaste..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I load Cowboy .45 Special with a 175 grain lead bullet and 4.2 grains of WST, but you will find about 5.0 grains of Unique will work fine, too. Roll crimp firmly. With a 200 grain bullet, you can reduce that powder by about 10%, but you will have a safe load even if you copy my powder weight. Dang, you changed from asking about Unique to asking about Trail Boss! Powders DO make a big difference; make sure you know what you are loading.. OK, Trail Boss for Cowboy 45 Special case and a 200 grain bullet might be about 4.5 grains for a LIGHT load, suitable for any of the single action revolvers. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Hangtree Posted March 16, 2019 Author Share Posted March 16, 2019 When I opened the bottle of Unique, I found that the seal was partially broken. Not trusting it, I took it back to the LGS and swapped it for Trail Boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I personally use 8.0 gr Universal behind a 213.5 gr., hardcast commercial bullet. I get about 950 ft/sec from my 7-1/2" barreled Ruger Old Model Vaquero. This is a bit stout for some, so you might want to cut back to 7.5 gr. Just be careful not to double-charge, as the powder takes up only about half the space in the case. A similar load in .45 LC will work fine. Similar loads using Unique will also work well. For lighter loads, you may want to try W231/HP38 (same powders, different brands), per loading handbooks! Trail Boss will also work, but I would stay above (about half-way between maximum and minimum listed in the manuals). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Make extra extra sure you have a good crimp in those 44-40's shooting smokeless. 5 gr. of 700x is a nice load in 44-40; with either 180 or 200 gr. bullet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Hillbilly Drifter said: OLG probably can help. He uses Unique for everything including toothpaste..... That was supposed to be our secret. Try 5.5-6.0 gn of WW231/HP38. Or 6.5-7.0gn of Unique. Firm roll crimp a must. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Marshal Hangtree said: When I opened the bottle of Unique, I found that the seal was partially broken. Not trusting it, I took it back to the LGS and swapped it for Trail Boss. I have had seals tear some when removing the lid. Not a big deal........ OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 I used to load 5.6 grs of Tite-Group with a 200 grain bullet in a .44-40. Like Tyrel said make sure you have a really good crimp on the .44-40 for smokeless and check the cases for really small cracks at the top! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juan Solo Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 For c45s I use 3.2 grains of trailboss under a 200gr from Missouri or SNS loaded at the crimp. It's a powder puff load that is pretty comparable so to most people's cowboy 38s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Art Tillery Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 6.0 grns of Trail Boss under a 200grn bullet... This is in the 44-40 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hillbilly Drifter Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 17 minutes ago, Major Art Tillery said: 6.0 grns of Trail Boss under a 200grn bullet. A very good load Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Hangtree Posted March 17, 2019 Author Share Posted March 17, 2019 Before I got the last several replies, I found another source on line that suggested 4.0 gr of Trail Boss for the .45 Cowboy Special. I loaded up 10 rounds this afternoon and took them to the range. The rounds shot great, with recoil comparable to .38 target loads. Thanks y'all for the advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 Yup, 6.0 TB in .44-40 with 200gr bullet and 4.0 TB in C45S with 180 gr bullet have been my loads for a long time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 I load C45S with 3.8 to 4 gr of Red Dot, Clay Dot, Promo or Clays with 200 gr bullets. All work for me in Rugers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 11:05 AM, Marshal Hangtree said: I've decided to load a batch of smokeless for a change, so I picked up a pound of Trail Boss this morning to experiment with. I run .44-40 in my '66 and .45 Cowboy Special in my revolvers, with 200gr RNFP cast boolits for each. What would be a good load for each caliber if I'm wanting to try reduced recoil "cowboy" loads. Thanks y'all. 200gr bullet for both Trail Boss 44-40 - 6.4gr 45 Colt - 5.5gr No chance of a double charge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duffield, SASS #23454 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 1:10 PM, "Big Boston" said: I have fooled with 44-40 for CAS. My firearm was a Commemorative '94 Winchester. A 200 gr RNFP LEE is what I used, and Unique (Universal). Around 9.5 gr gives the best accuracy, but it is not a Cowboy load. I dented and bent the targets at my first meet. It is a legal rifle load, about 1200 fps, but a bit much for the game. When the charge was lowered accuracy went down the toilet, and real small charges had erratic ignition. Perhaps a different primer may have helped. I turned to Red Dot, and used Alliant data, 5.9 gr max. I settled on 5.5 gr, and a CCI 300 primer. I didn't delve that deeply into this project, but I did try some other powders as well. (Trail Boss, Titegroup, and 231) They didn't work well for me. > The challenge is that the 44-40 is a rather large capacity case, and 200 gr is light bullet, and you are trying to load at low velocity. Best success comes with a fairly flaky low density high nitro glycerin content powder that the flame can propagate through consistently. If you are loading for a revolver, I'd suggest soft swaged bullets. I am puzzled by your loss of accuracy with reduced loads of Unique. I have had excellent results with 7.0 grains of Unique and 200 grain bullets in my 44/40ss. I shoot 45ACP Blackhawks with 3.0 grains of Bullseye and a 185 grain bullet with satisfactory accuracy. I believe this load should work in a 45CS. Your results may vary. Duffield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooligan Howes Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 5.5 grains of trail boss in the 44-40 and 3.5 in the cowboy specials. Google the reloading pages of M.D. Smith. I use it as a quick reference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 If for some odd reason I do have to load some smokeless ammo for my 44-40 its 6 gr of TB and 200 gr bullet. But at least when loading with Goex ff I never have to worry about a bullet collapsing, the case is pretty full.....so no collapse. Hochbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 45 Colt to John Taylor for "Gender Reassignment Surgery" to a 44-40! (Using 6.4gr of Trail Boss) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 On a side note, I was trying to adjust my open sights the other day after removing my scope from the Marlin 1894CB. You guys should just give me an AK-47 and a blind fold...LOL Might as well get a laugh out of it!!! You Tube Video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 5.6 Bullseye in my 44-40s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 On 3/17/2019 at 9:41 PM, Duffield, SASS #23454 said: I am puzzled by your loss of accuracy with reduced loads of Unique. I have had excellent results with 7.0 grains of Unique and 200 grain bullets in my 44/40ss. I shoot 45ACP Blackhawks with 3.0 grains of Bullseye and a 185 grain bullet with satisfactory accuracy. I believe this load should work in a 45CS. Your results may vary. Duffield I looked back in my notes, and any lower than 7 gr and accuracy really dropped off. The other issue was that the load was becoming powder position sensitive. A primer change may have helped with that. In retrospect, a change to a softer bullet alloy may have been in order. With a BHN of 15, at the lower pressure, there was probably a bit of failure to engage the rifling. That would explain the suitability of 5.5 gr of Red Dot, same low velocity, but at an increase of pressure. As soon as it's warm enough to cast outdoors, the plan is to cast with pure lead, increasing hardness with the addition of tin. I think at around a BHN or 8 > 12, I'll get good results. Nitro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 I ran a 100 rounds of C45S with 160 gr bullets and 3.3gr Trail Boss and found it to be too light a load to group well. Bumping it to 3.6/3.7 gave satisfactory consistency with Ruger New Vaqueros with 5-1/2" barrels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 If you get too light with loads in TB and it becomes inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
"Big Boston" Posted March 24, 2019 Share Posted March 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said: If you get too light with loads in TB and it becomes inconsistent. For what it's worth, I discovered the same thing, even to the point of it being position sensitive if reduced too much. I was not expecting that. In it's zone, it does work rather nicely. BB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Here is a video I made this morning. I spelled "Warriors" wrong but........ Inside include shots from 6.4gr of Trail Boss with Dick Dasterdly's Big Lube Bullets from Whyte's Leather Works...at 265 yards. Winchester 73' 25 yard and 265 yard shots with open Buckhorn sights. You Tube Video Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deadly Double J, SASS# 25626 Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 On 3/16/2019 at 2:52 PM, Tyrel Cody said: Make extra extra sure you have a good crimp in those 44-40's shooting smokeless. Hi, can you guy explain why the good crimp is more necessary in 44-40? I'm still learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 1 minute ago, Deadly Double J, SASS# 25626 said: Hi, can you guy explain why the good crimp is more necessary in 44-40? I'm still learning. It's not more necessary, it's just harder to get a good crimp due to the thinner wall of that particular case. If you don't the bullets will get pushed back into the case and jam your rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 17 minutes ago, Deadly Double J, SASS# 25626 said: Hi, can you guy explain why the good crimp is more necessary in 44-40? I'm still learning. Unlike cartridges like the 45 Colt and 38/357 magnums, the 44-40 crimp is not as "hard" of a crimp to hold the bullet from getting pushed back into the case, "telescoping". TelescopingDo not forget the crimp design on the bullet. Lead bullets designed with a deep crimp, but not as deep as a 44 magnum or 357 magnum, groove won't have this problem. Typically a crimp can be formed from roll crimping the case mouth into soft lead bullets that do not have a roll crimp groove like the Lyman 427098 and Hornady's lead Cowboy bullets. The Reeding Profile Crimp actually somewhat crimps and "squeezes" the case to form with the bullet, forming desired tight neck retention. The case mouth is forced into the lead preventing telescoping of the bullet back down into the case. The mild roll crimps don't work well with Winchester and Remington 44-40 jacketed bullets. This is why manufactures put a canular on the case at the bottom of the bullet to keep the bullet from telescoping down into the case from the magtube spring retention. This is where the Redding Profile Crimp works magic mimicking Winchester's concave crimp and not "damaging" it with the LFCD. Roll crimps work well with lead bullet crimp grooves such as the commercial 200gr Magma "Cowboy". Magma's 200gr "Cowboy" 44 Winchester Center Fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted March 25, 2019 Share Posted March 25, 2019 Driftwood Johnson has a good post here:Photo of a Magma Bullet with Roll Crimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 Posted March 26, 2019 Share Posted March 26, 2019 I've always loaded BP in my .44 -40 but recently used 4.7 TB with a 200g bullet in the rifle..worked very well with good velocity & power factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.