Shooting Bull Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 2 hours ago, John E.B. Rawton said: Curious as to the thought here. How could a DD out shoot a D? Is it a time thingy on clearing leather? After shooting the first pistol a regular Duelist has to take time to transfer that empty pistol to his weak hand which will then put it in its holster. After the transfer the strong hand then pulls the second pistol so it can be fired. The act of transferring from one hand to the other takes time. That’s time the Double Duelist doesn’t need to take. Secondly, a Double Duelist can start and finish with either hand. This opens up tons of additional (better) transition possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said: I remember that he said, "I can shoot with either hand I'm amphibious". can't remember who said it! IIRC it was Cozell McQueen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Just now, Sedalia Dave said: IIRC it was Cozell McQueen Charles Shackleford Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 8 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said: Charles Shackleford Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 12 hours ago, Shooting Bull said: After shooting the first pistol a regular Duelist has to take time to transfer that empty pistol to his weak hand which will then put it in its holster. After the transfer the strong hand then pulls the second pistol so it can be fired. The act of transferring from one hand to the other takes time. That’s time the Double Duelist doesn’t need to take. Secondly, a Double Duelist can start and finish with either hand. This opens up tons of additional (better) transition possibilities. Sounds like you’re describing a Duelist using a cross draw. Two strong side holsters open up options for a Duelist. Not quite as open as DD though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chili Pepper Pete 11917 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 I shot xdraw up until 5 or 6 years ago. I kept messing around with DD in practice but would never commit. Right from the start without practice the transition was a full second faster for DD but i kept telling myself one miss with the left gun would negate the advantage. I kept working at it and became more confident with my left hand and now 5 years later I am finally completely confident with my weak hand shooting. I am definitely faster with my strong hand but not by much. I also think how a match is set up can negate some of the advantage’s of DD. Lots of movement between guns seams to do that for me because moving between guns negates some of the transition time. IMO. All in all I’m glad I took the time to switch. Best regards, Chili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Straight Arrow Hombre said: Sounds like you’re describing a Duelist using a cross draw. Two strong side holsters open up options for a Duelist. Not quite as open as DD though. Crossdraw or double strong side doesn’t matter. At some point a Duelist has to transfer a pistol from his weak hand to strong hand in order to shoot it. He than has to transfer it from his strong hand back to his weak hand in order to holster it. Double Duelist doesn’t have to make those transfers. Less time and more transition options for a DD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said: Crossdraw or double strong side doesn’t matter. At some point a Duelist has to transfer a pistol from his weak hand to strong hand in order to shoot it. He than has to transfer it from his strong hand back to his weak hand in order to holster it. Double Duelist doesn’t have to make those transfers. Less time and more transition options for a DD. The key to being a strong Duelist shooter is; keep both hands active accomplishing something. If you cannot do so because of handgun transfers - you are giving up time. How much time (and how much it matters) varies with the strength of the shooter and the strength of their competition. But with all things being equal and a match employing a fair amount of same position pistol and long gun shooting (where that free hand for transition will really come into play) - a quality Double Duelist will beat an equally skilled D by minimally one second a stage. Effectively giving the DD two free misses over the course of 12 stages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 Amaduelist out of Florida (I think)is a fun to watch cross draw duelist. Real nice fella too. He'll hold his offhand above the pistol he's shooting ready to grab and holster it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 16, 2019 Share Posted March 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: The key to being a strong Duelist shooter is; keep both hands active accomplishing something. If you cannot do so because of handgun transfers - you are giving up time. How much time (and how much it matters) varies with the strength of the shooter and the strength of their competition. But with all things being equal and a match employing a fair amount of same position pistol and long gun shooting (where that free hand for transition will really come into play) - a quality Double Duelist will beat an equally skilled D by minimally one second a stage. Effectively giving the DD two free misses over the course of 12 stages. I like movement on the stages for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 20 hours ago, Shooting Bull said: Crossdraw or double strong side doesn’t matter. At some point a Duelist has to transfer a pistol from his weak hand to strong hand in order to shoot it. He than has to transfer it from his strong hand back to his weak hand in order to holster it. Double Duelist doesn’t have to make those transfers. Less time and more transition options for a DD. " He then has to transfer it from his strong hand back to his weak hand in order to holster it." Exactly and in the early days of trying DD it was this important part that I was neglecting when timing best/fastest method. I could switch off pretty fast to shoot but I was not adding the additional time of the switch back to get on to next gun. Once I discovered how to figure in that extra time with timer I realized the gain. I have not looked back. Sure there are a few stage scenarios that save a "traditional duelist" from to much loss in time in switch but as mentioned in the 'long haul" DD will be faster. IMO, cross draw duelist could possible have edge on TD, but not DD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straight Arrow Hombre Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 22 hours ago, Shooting Bull said: Crossdraw or double strong side doesn’t matter. At some point a Duelist has to transfer a pistol from his weak hand to strong hand in order to shoot it. He than has to transfer it from his strong hand back to his weak hand in order to holster it. Double Duelist doesn’t have to make those transfers. Less time and more transition options for a DD. Thank you for explaining this to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 On 3/15/2019 at 11:06 PM, Shooting Bull said: After shooting the first pistol a regular Duelist has to take time to transfer that empty pistol to his weak hand which will then put it in its holster. After the transfer the strong hand then pulls the second pistol so it can be fired. The act of transferring from one hand to the other takes time. That’s time the Double Duelist doesn’t need to take. Secondly, a Double Duelist can start and finish with either hand. This opens up tons of additional (better) transition possibilities. 22 hours ago, Shooting Bull said: Crossdraw or double strong side doesn’t matter. At some point a Duelist has to transfer a pistol from his weak hand to strong hand in order to shoot it. He than has to transfer it from his strong hand back to his weak hand in order to holster it. Double Duelist doesn’t have to make those transfers. Less time and more transition options for a DD. Although I shoot GF, I still try to read these good topics and try to grasp some of the things others are dealing with in other categories. QUESTION: Wouldn't the only exception to this (your previous post) transferring of revolver and reholstering are when the revolver(s) are shot last on the stage..... assuming there is a prop for proper/safe staging? Therefore, 'reholstering' would not be a requirement until the firing sequence is complete and stage run is finished. EDIT: I've seen MANY Duelist waste time reholstering their 1st revolver before drawing their 2nd revolver on a stage where a good prop is available to place their revolver. And I take time to remind them of such to try and help them out. To my surprise, some of them didn't know they could do that and it REALLY helps out when revolvers are last. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: Although I shoot GF, I still try to read these good topics and try to grasp some of the things others are dealing with in other categories. QUESTION: Wouldn't the only exception to this (your previous post) transferring of revolver and reholstering are when the revolver(s) are shot last on the stage..... assuming there is a prop for proper/safe staging? Therefore, 'reholstering' would not be a requirement until the firing sequence is complete and stage run is finished. EDIT: I've seen MANY Duelist waste time reholstering their 1st revolver before drawing their 2nd revolver on a stage where a good prop is available to place their revolver. And I take time to remind them of such to try and help them out. To my surprise, some of them didn't know they could do that and it REALLY helps out when revolvers are last. ..........Widder And if you are shooting double duelist you can hold the revolver you have shot dry while you pull and shoot the other revolver when they are shot back to back, and then reholster both at the same time. This can be done even when revolvers are not last. When last you get to reholster after the time stops off the clock. - Just make sure you have shot all 5 rounds before you pull the second revolver. - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 17, 2019 Share Posted March 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said: And if you are shooting double duelist you can hold the revolver you have shot dry while you pull and shoot the other revolver when they are shot back to back, and then reholster both at the same time. This can be done even when revolvers are not last. When last you get to reholster after the time stops off the clock. - Just make sure you have shot all 5 rounds before you pull the second revolver. - You can still correct that mistake. Joe Darter lost Texas State Senior Duelist State Championship last year because of an incorrect call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: You can still correct that mistake. Joe Darter lost Texas State Senior Duelist State Championship last year because of an incorrect call. Yep before you cock the second revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 1 hour ago, Cowtown Scout, SASS #53540 L said: Yep before you cock the second revolver. Or the first if you still have one or more left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 QUESTION #2: Duelist (or DD) draws 1st revolver and shoots 4 rounds.....thinking it was 5. Shooter LAYS revolver on a prop, OUT OF HAND. THEN draws 2nd revolver and shoots 5 out of it. Whether shooter fires the remaining round in 1st pistol or not, my question is: under this scenario, would the shooter earn a 'P'? NOTE: 1st pistol wasn't reholstered but rather laid on prop BEFORE 2nd pistol was drawn and cocked. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 I would think that if the shooting order was followed, no P. Unless, of course, the directions said first pistol, second pistol or some such. If shooter then picked up 1st revolver and finished the string in the correct order, no harm, no foul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 Widder, as long as the hammer is down on an empty chamber or a fired round, no call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 18, 2019 Share Posted March 18, 2019 8 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said: QUESTION #2: Duelist (or DD) draws 1st revolver and shoots 4 rounds.....thinking it was 5. Shooter LAYS revolver on a prop, OUT OF HAND. THEN draws 2nd revolver and shoots 5 out of it. Whether shooter fires the remaining round in 1st pistol or not, my question is: under this scenario, would the shooter earn a 'P'? NOTE: 1st pistol wasn't reholstered but rather laid on prop BEFORE 2nd pistol was drawn and cocked. ..........Widder If revolvers were LAST, no call except the miss. One caveat. If the shooter went around and had one just not go off and lost count that way, its possible a live round could be under the hammer on the prop that had not been declared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 On 3/17/2019 at 1:39 PM, Widder, SASS #59054 said: Although I shoot GF, I still try to read these good topics and try to grasp some of the things others are dealing with in other categories. QUESTION: Wouldn't the only exception to this (your previous post) transferring of revolver and reholstering are when the revolver(s) are shot last on the stage..... assuming there is a prop for proper/safe staging? Therefore, 'reholstering' would not be a requirement until the firing sequence is complete and stage run is finished. EDIT: I've seen MANY Duelist waste time reholstering their 1st revolver before drawing their 2nd revolver on a stage where a good prop is available to place their revolver. And I take time to remind them of such to try and help them out. To my surprise, some of them didn't know they could do that and it REALLY helps out when revolvers are last. ..........Widder Upon first glance I think that would be the slowest of all the options. Count the steps. Double Duelist: Done shooting either pistol reholster. One step. Regular Duelist: Done shooting weak hand pistol with strong hand transfer to weak hand and reholster. Two steps. Your suggestion: After you’re done firing the second pistol you have to pick up the first and then reholster. That’s two steps, the same as a regular Duelist. But I think picking it up would be slower than a direct hand to hand transfer. NOTE: When revolvers are last I simply pull my first pistol back to my hip and hold it there safely pointed down range until I’m done firing my second pistol. No sense wasting time holstering it until the end of the firing string. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Very small sample but slightly faster to holster. I would rather do what I have done countless times(reholster) then do something I've done limited amounts. I dont typically miss my holster but when I do I'll hold it there. No need to move concentration away from the task at hand. As for the second question I don't have the wording in front of me. If it's in hand then putting on table is probably ok. If it's not worded in hand then I would think you earn the P. If in hand and you lose count and hold it down I would think you earn the P. Now I need to find the wording. EMN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 Hey Pards. I pretty much know the answers to both my questions. The reason I posted those questions was because some previous comments were limiting some of the variable options, which could be beneficial or not, depending upon the shooter and stage scenario. EMN is correct, in my opinion, that its better to do what has been done countless times than to try something that you've only done a few times. I've seen some incredible Duelist and DD in my time, and I believe the technique is 2nd to none, especially when the Duelist/DD knows his 'profession' well. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eye Jim Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 As a cross draw Pistolero, I always draw the cross first and re-holster with the off hand holding it in place, especially if pistols are last. The only things I can do right handed are golf (badly) and bat (poorly)... The thing I was working on this last weekend was transitions from left to right shooting order where the pistols were from the right shooting station and were last. I would carry my long gun with me, transfer to my right hand on the move and draw with my left. I bet you can guess what I did that first stage... I need to work on drawing my left gun first, shooting and then drawing from and re-holstering into the right holster at the same time. edit: spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 36 minutes ago, El Muerto Negro said: I would rather do what I have done countless times(reholster) then do something I've done limited amounts. I dont typically miss my holster but when I do I'll hold it there. No need to move concentration away from the task at hand. Careful. That's been clarified as a sdq for breaking the 170. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Muerto Negro Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said: Careful. That's been clarified as a sdq for breaking the 170. To clarify the barrel would not be pointed down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said: Careful. That's been clarified as a sdq for breaking the 170. Probably...if missed to the Up Range side on a straight draw holster (without a cant). Also, it's the 180 and very few folks call this because they think that the 180 degree rule applies until the revolver is actually holstered...BUT, only the X-Draw folks get the weekly warning at the safety meetings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 57 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Probably...if missed to the Up Range side on a straight draw holster (without a cant). Also, it's the 180 and very few folks call this because they think that the 180 degree rule applies until the revolver is actually holstered...BUT, only the X-Draw folks get the weekly warning at the safety meetings No, this is actually the 170 that is being broken because it has been determined the shooter is NOT in the act of reholstering while just holding the pistol down beside their holster. While we're in the process of reholstering you're correct they are allowed to go 180°. This is different because they are not holstering, therefore no allowance to go to 180°. They cant just hold the pistol down next to the holster at 171°. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 12 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: No, this is actually the 170 that is being broken because it has been determined the shooter is NOT in the act of reholstering while just holding the pistol down beside their holster. While we're in the process of reholstering you're correct they are allowed to go 180°. This is different because they are not holstering, therefore no allowance to go to 180°. They cant just hold the pistol down next to the holster at 171°. Actually in application it's 175 degrees. You are correct regarding the 180 applying only to holstering. I made the error of assuming we were talking about holstering...oops! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Actually in application it's 175 degrees. You are correct regarding the 180 applying only to holstering. I made the error of assuming we were talking about holstering...oops! Phantom I need ice cream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said: I need ice cream Actually meant to say it's 85 degrees on each side of perpendicular. Now it's ice cream time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eye Jim Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 No ice cream until it's 80 degrees outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 40 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Actually meant to say it's 85 degrees on each side of perpendicular. Now it's ice cream time. Or is it 85 degrees deviation from parallel with grade? If you're standing on a 20% slope shooting at a southbound target with a slight headwind, will Tyrel steal candy from a kid before Widder gets all the floors mopped for the bunkhouse boss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted March 19, 2019 Share Posted March 19, 2019 16 minutes ago, Red Eye Jim said: No ice cream until it's 80 degrees outside. Speak for yourself! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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