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Chili Pepper Pete 11917

Duelist and the two loaded gun rule

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The Shooter Handbook states under Duelist “at no time shall a competitor have 2 loaded revolvers in hand at the same time”

 

Gunfighters and B western shooters are allowed 2 loaded revolvers out at the same time.   I don’t know that it is really practical for two handed shooters to have 2 out at the same time but I’m not against that either.  

 

 But the Duelist Categories, they may like the option to have two out...   

 So I’m curious when this rule was enacted and the logic behind not allowing duelist to have the same option as Gun Fighters and B Western.  Is there some safety concern or practical reason I’m not seeing.    Could this be one of the rare cases where we could actually petition to get rid of a rule without some group being upset?    I think its worth a discussion.  What say you?

 

Best regards,

 

Chili Pepper Pete

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Simple answer, GF is not Duelist. -_-

I was a Duelist-I never wanted to have both out at the same time. :huh:

There's Double-Duelist too.......^_^

OLG

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13 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Simple answer, GF is not Duelist. -_-

I was a Duelist-I never wanted to have both out at the same time. :huh:

There's Double-Duelist too.......^_^

OLG

 

Lumpy, you should know better; there is no Double-Duelist :lol:

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I’m not suggesting that Duelist is GF. Nor am I saying a duelist should be able to alternate between pistols.  What is the harm in drawing or having the other pistol out while shooting the other?   What is the purpose and intent of the rule?

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B western shooters are allowed to shoot gunfighter style. If not shooting gunfighter the two loaded gun rule appiles. The gunfighter style is the only allowance for two loaded guns at one time.

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33 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

I’m not suggesting that Duelist is GF. Nor am I saying a duelist should be able to alternate between pistols.  What is the harm in drawing or having the other pistol out while shooting the other?   What is the purpose and intent of the rule?

Common sense.  

If you are a two handed shooter and have two loaded revolvers out at one time, you are only controlling one of them.  I  do understand that the second revolver is not going to get up and run away.  But, if the prop is bumped and the revolver spins - MDQ (sweeping with a loaded gun).

Easier to keep it holstered.

 

BS

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Even worse if the second is instinctively cocked as it is drawn while shooting the other.

 

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19 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said:

Even worse if the second is instinctively cocked as it is drawn while shooting the other.

 

Then you earn the penalty. 

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44 minutes ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

B western shooters are allowed to shoot gunfighter style. If not shooting gunfighter the two loaded gun rule appiles. The gunfighter style is the only allowance for two loaded guns at one time.

 

BW shooter could decide to shoot a stage DD style and still be within GF guidelines/rules.

 

The GF can draw both revolvers at the same time, shoot one revolver dry and then use the 2nd revolver (in the other hand) for the remaining 5 rounds.   BW could do the same and still be considered GF style.

 

..........Widder

 

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Exactly. The B western shooter is following the Gunfighter rules with two loaded revolvers. The duelest cannot. He must shoot one dry then draw the second, duelest rule, not gunfighter.

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+1 to CPP.  A duelist shoots with one hand unsupported and un-assisted.  How much simpler can it be?  The shouldn’t be a rule about how many revolvers a duelist has out at one time.  There are other rules in play if 170 is violated, dropped empty or loaded gun, moving with a cocked pistol, etc.  

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Hell I can hold my shotgun in one hand and shoot my pistol with the other if i’d Like  but I cant draw my second revolver with out the first one being shot dry.   Come on!   This rule has nothing to do with safely.   Are GFs and BW somehow more safe than Duelist ?

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The whole point is that a duelist cant draw his second gun until the first is empty.    Hell a BW  shooter could pull both pistols, cock one pistol and start shooting, change his mind about the other and reholster while shooting and it would be a NO CALL

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1 hour ago, SHOOTIN FOX said:

B western shooters are allowed to shoot gunfighter style. If not shooting gunfighter the two loaded gun rule appiles. The gunfighter style is the only allowance for two loaded guns at one time.

 

There is no rule requiring a gunfighter, or B-western shooter shooting gunfighter style to alternate shots.  So as long as one is shot with left hand, and the other is shot with the right hand, they can pull them both, shoot one dry, then shoot the other one.

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11 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

Hell I can hold my shotgun in one hand and shoot my pistol with the other if i’d Like  but I cant draw my second revolver with out the first one being shot dry.   Come on!   This rule has nothing to do with safely.   Are GFs and BW somehow more safe than Duelist ?

Oooh careful...pretty soon you're going to realize that not being allowed to shoot on the move is silly too.

Essentially the problem is this... incompetent people playing four gun that have never shot competitively before, old folks running around in slip enhancement footwear, and rules designed to frustrate the gunfighter because somehow he's extra dangerous...how come you can't fully load the '97? Why do empty shells in an action matter? How come we can't wear shady Brady's? What is a shady Brady? Is it a tricorn hat with a NE Patriots logo?  

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18 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

The whole point is that a duelist cant draw his second gun until the first is empty.    Hell a BW  shooter could pull both pistols, cock one pistol and start shooting, change his mind about the other and reholster while shooting and it would be a NO CALL

Nope. The minute a BW shooter pulls both guns and cocks one he is shooting gunfighter and the guns can't be re-holstered for later use, it can be staged but not re-holstered.

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Do remember that, in the event that one draws both pistols but is not shooting Gunfighter or B-Western, they may holster one of them without penalty up to the point that one of them is cocked.

 

 

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I'm going on the record and saying I fully support every other duelist filling one of their hands with something they cannot do a thing with but hold until they finish the first pistol. In fact, I say require it for everyone but me.

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3 hours ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

The Shooter Handbook states under Duelist “at no time shall a competitor have 2 loaded revolvers in hand at the same time”

 

 

Chili Pepper Pete

 

Its a safety issue fellers.   I can't imagine anyone holding 2 revolvers in their hand being safe.   They obviously would

have to have a big hand and more than 4 fingers and 1 thumb to control both of them at the same time..... :o

 

..........Widder

 

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So if I read the TG report correctly  a GF or BW can in fact draw both pistols and shoot double duelist without penalty.  5 out of one then 5 out of the other one = no P.      Is that Correct?

 

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6 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

So if I read the TG report correctly  a GF or BW can in fact draw both pistols and shoot double duelist without penalty.  5 out of one then 5 out of the other one = no P.      Is that Correct?

 

Yes sir

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44 minutes ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Oooh careful...pretty soon you're going to realize that not being allowed to shoot on the move is silly too.

Essentially the problem is this... incompetent people playing four gun that have never shot competitively before, old folks running around in slip enhancement footwear, and rules designed to frustrate the gunfighter because somehow he's extra dangerous...how come you can't fully load the '97? Why do empty shells in an action matter? How come we can't wear shady Brady's? What is a shady Brady? Is it a tricorn hat with a NE Patriots logo?  

 

I have no intention of going down that road.  CG. I’m not sure how incompetent people in our sport is an issue in this discussion.  They are already out there  so I’m not sure that point is valid.   

 

My question is more about why it is ok for 2 categories to do it with no chance of a P but all duelist categories are subject to it.   All I want is an honest look at the rule to see if it could be amended to allow a Duelist to draw his second pistol before the first is empty.  Duelist would still have to shoot one gun dry before shooting the second.  I’m not trying to change the world here. 

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Mr. Chili, you have answered your own question. Just shoot GF and then you can shoot double duelist with a gun in each hand with no penalty (and no rule change).

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2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Yes sir

 

And No One else sees this as a problem?   We cant even clear leather without getting a P

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57 minutes ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Oooh careful...pretty soon you're going to realize that not being allowed to shoot on the move is silly too.

Essentially the problem is this... incompetent people playing four gun that have never shot competitively before, old folks running around in slip enhancement footwear, and rules designed to frustrate the gunfighter because somehow he's extra dangerous...how come you can't fully load the '97? Why do empty shells in an action matter? How come we can't wear shady Brady's? What is a shady Brady? Is it a tricorn hat with a NE Patriots logo?  

When we play Football we play by Football rules. When we play Rugby we play by Rugby rules. When we play IDPA we play by IDPA rules and when we play Cowboy Action Shooter we play by Cowboy Action Shooter (SASS) rules. The only incompetents I see is people failing to understand this simple truth.

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Major,   You are obviously an accomplished shooter based your profile.  It appears that you are a GF and FC shooter but I don’t see duelist?   Why don’t you think the rule should be changed?        In your GF catagory you can draw however and how many you wish without being penelized.   So why isn’t that a good thing for me too.    As to your solution sir,    As a Frontiersman,  it sucks having a cap jam or stuck cylinder with a loaded gun in each hand. 

 

Best regards,

 

Chili

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If duelists were allowed to draw both loaded revolvers you'd end up with some shooters holding up both revolvers like a gunfighter and it would have to be determined if the cocking of the second gun began before the first gun wss empty. 

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It was a joke, son. Next time I will add the smiley face. I think you have a valid point and asked a valid question. This site is here to also discuss issues and you have brought up a valid issue and as a TG it is my job to listen no matter how far we live apart. Weather I agree or disagree is irrelevant. Talk to your local TG.

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SG. With all do respect.  As opposed to having to tell if a GF shot 2 rounds at the same time and arguing about that.  Plus the TO should be looking right at the shooters pistols so i would think that would be a pretty easy call to make,  don’t you?

 

 

 

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And we're off. This should be good for 8 pages, just like the recent thread on the same topic. Get a rope and a lawyer, 'cause there's gonna be a hangin' on this here wire.

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3 minutes ago, Major B. S. Walker said:

When we play Football we play by Football rules. When we play Rugby we play by Rugby rules. When we play IDPA we play by IDPA rules and when we play Cowboy Action Shooter we play by Cowboy Action Shooter (SASS) rules. The only incompetents I see is people failing to understand this simple truth.

Hey there BS,

This is true, but this is the one shooting discipline that has some really odd rules. There are a lot of folks that start shooting SASS with no other competitive shooting experience. Hence the term incompetent. You have someone green to competition going from one gun at a time at the range to trying to make 24+ shots in varying sequences from multiple positions. There are a lot of folks who only compete in this one discipline and have no idea how difficult the rules are for someone crossing over from another discipline. I'm flat baffled by some of the rules and just shrug at the penalty when it's called. Coming from other disciplines as an SO/RO it burns me up that it takes so long to make the proper call on the line. That adds insult to injury. It gives the impression that the one making the ruling is uncertain of the rules. 

 

As far as shooting GF to avoid the Penalty I'd say shoot BW because there you can shoot in any manner you wish. In theory you could start the stage as GF and finish as two handed. I don't see how you could be assessed with any Penalty and you could reholster at anytime. As a duelist you could (in theory) draw and fire one round with the left and reholster then draw and fire one round with the right without penalty while a GF can't be trusted to do so. I think shooting out of category should not be a progressive penalty. That's a match ender for something that isn't unsafe at all. Totally bogus. Just keep calling the P and there's no way they can outshoot the penalty. 

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32 minutes ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

 

And No One else sees this as a problem?   We cant even clear leather without getting a P

Yes there are different rules for gun fighters. It’s not all good either. For example, a gunfighter can’t reholster guns that all rounds haven’t been fired, but all other categories can. It’s a trade off

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45 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Its a safety issue fellers.   I can't imagine anyone holding 2 revolvers in their hand being safe.   They obviously would

have to have a big hand and more than 4 fingers and 1 thumb to control both of them at the same time..... :o

 

..........Widder

 

Widder snuck a funny in and everybody's too riled up to see it...

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1 minute ago, Redwood Kid said:

Yes there are different rules for gun fighters. It’s not all good either. For example, a gunfighter can’t reholster guns that all rounds haven’t been fired, but all other categories can. It’s a trade off

You say trade off and I say acknowledgement that the average RO staffer can't keep up with the GF well enough to see what is cocked or fired.

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