Time to lose the spotter?

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Painting between shooters has been done locally for the last few years.  It works well but requires more labor to keeping a posse running.  The crew setting shotgun targets and painting other targets usually is finished before the brass is picked up.  Spotters are still needed.  They are still responsible for determining the number of misses.  The fresh paint just makes their job easier.

[Yul Lose]

2 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Painting between shooters has been done locally for the last few years.  It works well but requires more labor to keeping a posse running.  The crew setting shotgun targets and painting other targets usually is finished before the brass is picked up.  Spotters are still needed.  They are still responsible for determining the number of misses.  The fresh paint just makes their job easier.

Are the stages separated by a berm or they share the bay and have to shut down more posses to paint the targets?

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

Painting between shooters has been done locally for the last few years.  It works well but requires more labor to keeping a posse running.  The crew setting shotgun targets and painting other targets usually is finished before the brass is picked up.  Spotters are still needed.  They are still responsible for determining the number of misses.  The fresh paint just makes their job easier.

I agree.  I wish we could move to painting in between shooters, but keep the spotters.  It won't work on ranges with a common firing line, but where it will work it would be helpful to do it.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

Just now, Yul Lose said:

Are the stages separated by a berm or they share the bay and have to shut down more posses to paint the targets?

All stages are separated by berms.  As others mentioned painting after every shooter is quite impractical otherwise.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

As others mentioned painting after every shooter is quite impractical otherwise.

 

Why -You only paint the splat from rifle and handgun. You don't touch the SG targets, except to reset-if needed.

OLG

 

 

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Why -You only paint the splat from rifle and handgun. You don't touch the SG targets, except to reset-if needed.

OLG

 

 

 

He's referring to painting being impractical if stages have a common firing line.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Just now, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

He's referring to painting being impractical if stages have a common firing line.

OK-TNX!

I didn't 'read'-it' that way.

OLG

[Turkey Flats Jack]

as a newer shooter I enjoy spotting. It helps get me on track for how to shoot the stage and makes me think about the rules. If I see something that I believe to be a violation/procedural i'll tell the other spotters and TO. When i'm wrong about the call they straighten me out and that helps clear up what I thought the rule was vs how it actually works. As for painting between shooters it sounds good and would help but is it worth the extra time? I've been shooting an indoor match all winter. It takes us approximately 4 hours to get 20 shooters through 5 stages because of taping the targets. I couldnt begin to imagine how bored i'd get waiting on targets to be painted with 3 posse's of 20-30 shooters and no berms. 

[Captain Bill Burt]

I don't think anyone would try to do that if there weren't berms.

[Tennessee williams]

28 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

 

Tyrel, 

from what I been hearing,  you only have to close em for a few seconds and then its over.

Matter of fact, I heard if you 'blink', you might miss his rifle run..... 

 

..........Widder

 

They time me with a calendar. I'm thinking any time now I'll finish this weekends match.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

8 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

They time me with a calendar. I'm thinking any time now I'll finish this weekends match.

 

Yea, Yea, Yea.....

I heard you've adopted the Rabbits motto:   "This won't take long.....did it"?

 

..........Widder

 

[Tennessee williams]

36 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You can know every dang rule in the book like the back of your hand and still be a poor spotter.

 

No "spotter's course" is going to impact the quality of spotting.

 

Phantom

Agree^. Ever notice how its usually the same spotters and when one of them takes the spotting stick, theres a collective sigh from the loading table?

This past weekend had a stage that was single tap all 5 targets. Everybody else did 2 sweeps from the same direction. I did 1,2,3,4,5,4,5,3,2,1. Had a spotter change his mind from a miss and a P to two misses. Other 2 spotters had different counts and he couldnt decide who he agreed with. It was funny.

[Tyrel Cody]

42 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

 

Tyrel, 

from what I been hearing,  you only have to close em for a few seconds and then its over.

Matter of fact, I heard if you 'blink', you might miss his rifle run..... 

 

..........Widder

 

 

I'm hearing the same thing. Looking at his scores from the last couple of matches it seems to be true. No doubt he has worked hard to get there.

[Tennessee williams]

Someone is lyin to you fellers

[Tyrel Cody]

2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Someone is lyin to you fellers

Scorebooks don't lie.

[Assassin]

How about the spotters getting up and following the shooter and getting a better vantage point vs. sitting on their butt and watching from afar.

Spotting takes work, it's not just sitting around. Spotters need to be as focused as the shooter. 

[Joke 'um]

I'm on the youngish end of cowboy shooters ( 65), and shoot Steel Challenge and USPSA.  In those I'm an old guy.  "Running" downrange 100 or so times a match to do chores (paint, patch, reset steel) leaves me melted at the end of the day.  The two minutes spend shooting each stage can become an small interuption in a day of work.

Keep spotters!  Two out of three will probably be right if they ain't shootin' the breeze too much.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

7 minutes ago, Assassin said:

How about the spotters getting up and following the shooter and getting a better vantage point vs. sitting on their butt and watching from afar.

Spotting takes work, it's not just sitting around. Spotters need to be as focused as the shooter. 

ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Grizzly Dave]

Boy howdy!

 

Vegas gets a dusting of snow and ol' Creeker goes off the deep end! 

 

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

Someone will have to sandblast or scrape the targets regularly too. A coat of brushed or rolled on paint will be .002" to .005", times thirty five shooters equals .070" to .175", times a dozen matches a year equals nearly 7/8" to over 2" of paint over a years time.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

4 minutes ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

Someone will have to sandblast or scrape the targets regularly too. A coat of brushed or rolled on paint will be .002" to .005", times thirty five shooters equals .070" to .175", times a dozen matches a year equals nearly 7/8" to over 2" of paint over a years time.

We just use cheap spray paint and only paint the bullet splats.  No such scraping is needed for our targets.

[Joe West]

 Originally the GA SASS matches I helped with used verified targets [paper, frangible, or repainted]. 

Several years ago, with complaints of incorrect scores I proposed we try  returning to that.  So I did this experiment for a year.

  We do have berms between the bays. I had the spotters stay and we compared the spotter result to the actual count. With paint handy the time added was not appreciable as they were touched up by the time brass was picked up and shotgun targets reset in almost every case. But slightly more labor was involved. The error result was  right below 10 % both ways. So in a year you're going to see about an even number of errors for and against the shooters in general, slightly more weighted towards BP. When I reported that to my club they voted overwhelmingly to quit painting the targets.

  My conclusion was returning to our old methods was considered just too much extra effort for a monthly shoot,  even though I thought that was a pretty bad record of accuracy. There are enough errors to warrant this if scoring is critical but most of our participants, myself included , accept that it evens out pretty well.

[Cypress Sun]

I could see repainting after each posse at the larger shoots if there is no common line.......but after every shooter? 

 

If spotters can't figure out what constitutes a hit or miss, what makes one think that they can be relied on to call a P due to incorrect engagement of the stage sequence?

 

Spotters are human, humans make mistakes and painting the targets after every shooter isn't going to change that.

 

BTW, shotgun targets should NEVER be repainted during a match.....nobody wants paint on their hands.

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

 Why not just switch to ROBOTS ?they are taking over anyway.   

[Dutch Wheeler]

 

Somebody get the popcorn going, this is heading for at least 6 pages !

 

[Whiskey Hayes #41999]

Williams

 

I saved you from the P but you need to look around at the spotters.  If your spotters are 89 year old you need to slow down just a second.  Your guns sounded like one shot, you don't even know if you hit them all.  The only way we knew you fired all 20 rounds is when the ULT officer told us in fact you unloaded so fast don't think he was real sure.

 

Whiskey

[Tennessee williams]

37 minutes ago, Whiskey Hayes #41999 said:

Williams

 

I saved you from the P but you need to look around at the spotters.  If your spotters are 89 year old you need to slow down just a second.  Your guns sounded like one shot, you don't even know if you hit them all.  The only way we knew you fired all 20 rounds is when the ULT officer told us in fact you unloaded so fast don't think he was real sure.

 

Whiskey

Hahahaha! It's like I told you at the match. When you mess up as much as I do and still walk away laughing and smiling, it's some fun stage writing! Those misses always come out in the wash anyway. For instance, I just had one this upcoming shoot and they aint even called it on me yet!

[Thunder Creek Kid]

Definite NO.

[Hoss]

I take spotting seriously. Granted, I’ve had my mind wander or otherwise  be distracted, but in general I think I’m a good spotter. I never sneak a peak at what other spotters are showing if I have a doubt. If I have any doubt, it’s a hit. I’ve seen too many spotters look to see what other spotters say before they declare. If you are not sure, then it’s a hit!!!!!

I like at least 2 indicators of a miss. Like see Bullet impact ground, no clang. If I see Bullet hit. ground, is it at a possible edge hit angle? 

Be very mindful that some targets are dead and don’t make much of a clang. 

If I see any one indicator of a hit, see it, hear it, see target move that’s good enough for me. 

 

I dont think painting between every shooter is practical. 

[Boomstick Bruce]

1 hour ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 Why not just switch to ROBOTS ?they are taking over anyway.   

Can I get a robot to shoot for me too? 

 

I swear some of you guys are robots

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

There is a reason we have 3 spotters. And there is a reason to have targets that are not dead.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

It will take too long.

It's impractical.

I'm willing to accept the variance (what was it again?  Only a 10% error rate?)

 

Maybe it will take too long - is there another method?

Shared bays - it is impractical - Are there alternatives?

Willing to accept the variance - Is that really the methodology we want when determining champions?

 

Maybe I'm out of line...

But when we enact a speed limit on Gunfighters because of the inabilities of our spotters.

When spotters disagree about scoring - because they "think"...

When spotters are more interested in socializing and sitting...

When a shooters match placement is determined not on their skills or abilities but on the skills and abilities of their spotters...

 

I care about our game - making it better - making it fairer.

Eliminating or controlling best we can; the things that make our game inconsistent shooter to shooter.

 

But if we keep looking for reasons to NOT improve...

I bet we get there.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 minute ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

It will take too long.

It's impractical.

I'm willing to accept the variance (what was it again?  Only a 10% error rate?)

 

Maybe it will take too long - is there another method?

Shared bays - it is impractical - Are there alternatives?

Willing to accept the variance - Is that really the methodology we want when determining champions?

 

Maybe I'm out of line...

But when we enact a speed limit on Gunfighters because of the inabilities of our spotters.

When spotters disagree about scoring - because they "think"...

When spotters are more interested in socializing and sitting...

When a shooters match placement is determined not on their skills or abilities but on the skills and abilities of their spotters...

 

I care about our game - making it better - making it fairer.

Eliminating or controlling best we can; the things that make our game inconsistent shooter to shooter.

 

But if we keep looking for reasons to NOT improve...

I bet we get there.

 

I don't think anyone that is saying "no way" are opposed to improving the game. Hell, my speech at all the big matches that I RO for includes the "if you go hmmm for a second, it's a hit!

 

So if someone smart can figure out how to deal with common firing lines...and perhaps have painting on stages that have berms and traditional spotting on those that don't have berms.

 

Trust me, I know of no one that doesn't want to improve the "Scoring" of our game.

 

Phantom

[Joe LaFives #5481]

8 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

We do it in W3G all the time. 2 painters,(you only paint the bullet 'splat')and the targets are done before the brass is picked up.

It would be doable in SASS also-

OLG

So How many stages and how many shooters.  Also what if its wet, paint isn't gonna stick

[Max Payne]

Let's go to the honor system & let each shooter call their own performance. We'll use me as a pilot for about a year (or two) to see how we like it. I promise to be hard on myself.