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Switching to Crossdraw


M D Lancaster

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With the snow falling here on a beautiful PA night

I thought a curious non argumentative topic would be fun

Those of you that switched to crossdraw -- How did your transition go 

Did you stay with it --or switched back 

Did you experiment with differing holsters-settings/positions

Deal with "the shuffle " or position yourself for a clean draw

Just curious as I have been dry fire practicing and working on 170 awareness

Thanks

 

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What on Earth makes you think we can have a non argumentative thread? :lol:

 

 

I've shot two matches with a crossdraw, positioned so there is no dance moves. Currently I've switched back to double strong side because my belly gets in the way of my crossdraw holsters.

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MD

I also have a considerable amount of "cowboy costuming" around my waist .I found that wearing my gun belt lower on my hips and using holsters with some kick out at the top of the holsters helps clear my belly.It also cuts down on any interference between gunbelt and shotgun belt.

I have also changed my foot position so I don't  have to do "the dance".

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I am just not coordinated enough with my left hand to hit the holster every time.  So, I adopted the cross draw and a starting stance where I don't have to do any dance.

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I wanted to try using a cross draw. I practiced everyday for 3 weeks before our next match. On the first 3 stages, I tried to put my pistol in a holster that wasn't there. I'm sure that if I stuck with it, I would get use to it.

Like anything we do it this game, it's practice, practice, practice 

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Draw with right hand, shoot, use left hand to holster gun while drawing strong side with right hand , shoot and holster with right hand.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
10 hours ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

I wanted to try using a cross draw. I practiced everyday for 3 weeks before our next match. On the first 3 stages, I tried to put my pistol in a holster that wasn't there. I'm sure that if I stuck with it, I would get use to it.

Like anything we do it this game, it's practice, practice, practice 

 

 Practice will only help if you are practicing the right way .You say that the holster was not there.you have two eyes, as you draw the right and the left is holstering give a quick look this can be done without moving your head. Have fun ,I have always shot Duelist using two hand method always reminded me of IDPA or IPSC. :FlagAm:

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I changed to a crossdraw with 15 degree cant, and the rules state that there is an obvious exception to the 170 rule when drawing and holstering. I don't bother with the "dance" any more. The way I read the rule, and it has been beat to death on here, you can't call a 170 violation on a shooter while drawing or holstering from any SASS legal holster (30 deg or less).

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2 hours ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 

 Practice will only help if you are practicing the right way .You say that the holster was not there.you have two eyes, as you draw the right and the left is holstering give a quick look this can be done without moving your head. Have fun ,I have always shot Duelist using two hand method always reminded me of IDPA or IPSC. :FlagAm:

You are 100% correct TJB. When I practiced at home, I looked at the gun into the holster. At the match, muscle memory kicked in and I didn't look. That was my mistake. And shame on me, as I had been instructed by Cowboy Carty to look the gun into the holster.

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1 hour ago, Ranger Dan said:

I changed to a crossdraw with 15 degree cant, and the rules state that there is an obvious exception to the 170 rule when drawing and holstering. I don't bother with the "dance" any more. The way I read the rule, and it has been beat to death on here, you can't call a 170 violation on a shooter while drawing or holstering from any SASS legal holster (30 deg or less).

Hi Dan,

 

The 170 isn't in effect vertically when drawing or holstering.  This does not apply to crossdraw holsters and the 180 degree rule is ALWAYS in effect for ALL holster types.

 

SHB Page 3.

Although cross draw and shoulder holsters are legal, extreme care must be exercised when drawing a firearm from a cross draw or shoulder holster or retuning the firearm to leather. The user must “twist” their body, if necessary, to ensure the muzzle never breaks the 170° safety rule during the process. - When drawing a revolver, the muzzle may be oriented into the straight down (180°) as it clears leather; but must then go immediately into the downrange 170° (and vice versa on the return). These restrictions against breaking the downrange 180° angle apply to all holsters and methods of draw/re-holster.

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Not long after starting to shoot I switched to duelist and continued to use my regular holster rig.  I shot with my right hand (strong side) and drawing from the left holster I would switch the revolver from my left to my right hand.  It seem to me that switching to a cross draw would work better by eliminating the transition of the gun from the left to right hand.  I had a cross draw holster made and have never looked back.  It does require some thought about  stance at the shooting line and drawing, but I love it.  As a duelist I shoot a little slower than other two-handed posse members, but maybe I get a few style points for shooting duelist. 

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Captian Bill Burt,

 

The 170° Rule
The 170° rule means the muzzle of a firearm must always be straight down range (+/– 85° in
any direction). Muzzle direction and muzzle control is important between, before, during,
and after shooting a stage. The 170° rule is the backbone of all safe firearm handling and is
always in effect.
- A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time.
- Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and
muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.
- A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty
chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as
sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster.
- Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for a Stage Disqualification
penalty assessment, and for repeat offenses, a Match Disqualification penalty.
NOTE: An obvious exception to this rule exists, where the shooter is given the ability to
draw and holster revolvers from approved, legal holsters without penalty. Further exception
is given when retrieving and returning vertically staged double barrel shotguns without
penalty

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58 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Captian Bill Burt,

 

The 170° Rule
The 170° rule means the muzzle of a firearm must always be straight down range (+/– 85° in
any direction). Muzzle direction and muzzle control is important between, before, during,
and after shooting a stage. The 170° rule is the backbone of all safe firearm handling and is
always in effect.
- A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time.
- Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and
muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.
- A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty
chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as
sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster.
- Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for a Stage Disqualification
penalty assessment, and for repeat offenses, a Match Disqualification penalty.
NOTE: An obvious exception to this rule exists, where the shooter is given the ability to
draw and holster revolvers from approved, legal holsters without penalty. Further exception
is given when retrieving and returning vertically staged double barrel shotguns without
penalty

Yep, I understand that. However, it's an obvious exception because for many holsters (without cant) you're holstering straight down, which is outside the 170.    There is no physical way to get the gun in the holster without breaking the 170 vertically.  Note that exception also applies specifically to vertically staged double SGs, for the same reason.  I understand that it can be confusing, but ask yourself, why does it say 'obviously'?  What is obvious about holstering that requires this exception?

 

When holstering the cross draw you are potentially violating the 170 horizontally (and there may be shooters to your left and/or right who potentially could be swept).  In this case the 170 violation can be easily avoided by either taking a stance that aligns your holster within the 170 or by doing the dance.  That is why you are required to do one of those if you use a cross draw.

 

For context here's the next paragraph after the one I originally quoted for you. 

 

When drawing a revolver, the muzzle may be oriented into the straight down (180°) as it clears leather; but must then go immediately into the downrange 170° (and vice versa on the return). These restrictions against breaking the downrange 180° angle apply to all holsters and methods of draw/re-holster. This allowance applies to all types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to cross draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs. 
 

So, you have an allowance to break the 170 vertically, but you don't have an allowance to break it horizontally.  Keep in mind my original quotation to you specifically stated that crossdraw shooters must twist their body if necessary to ensure their muzzle NEVER breaks the 170.

 

Go to a major match and fail to do that and there's a good chance you'll get a DQ and you'll have earned it.

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48 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

Captian Bill Burt,

 

The 170° Rule
The 170° rule means the muzzle of a firearm must always be straight down range (+/– 85° in
any direction). Muzzle direction and muzzle control is important between, before, during,
and after shooting a stage. The 170° rule is the backbone of all safe firearm handling and is
always in effect.
- A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time.
- Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and
muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.
- A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty
chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as
sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster.
- Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for a Stage Disqualification
penalty assessment, and for repeat offenses, a Match Disqualification penalty.
NOTE: An obvious exception to this rule exists, where the shooter is given the ability to
draw and holster revolvers from approved, legal holsters without penalty. Further exception
is given when retrieving and returning vertically staged double barrel shotguns without
penalty

Uh...yeah but you can never break 180 when holstering/reholstering...

 

I'm sure you know that...

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I love this... I never said anything about breaking the 180, the rule is against breaking the 170 and the exception is when drawing and holstering. So how can you call a violation for breaking the 170 when drawing or holstering? I really do want clarification because I have had ROs say "you need to do the dance just cuz you crossdraw". I disagree, I use a 15 degree canted holster just left of the buckle, I draw the pistol straight up, pointed 180 degrees straight down just like the strong side holster and immediately transition to downrange. I could be facing left and pivot as I draw and still not break the 180 just like any strong side draw. So long as you draw straight up out of the holster and transition to downrange, what can you call?

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
2 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

I love this... I never said anything about breaking the 180, the rule is against breaking the 170 and the exception is when drawing and holstering. So how can you call a violation for breaking the 170 when drawing or holstering? I really do want clarification because I have had ROs say "you need to do the dance just cuz you crossdraw". I disagree, I use a 15 degree canted holster just left of the buckle, I draw the pistol straight up, pointed 180 degrees straight down just like the strong side holster and immediately transition to downrange. I could be facing left and pivot as I draw and still not break the 180 just like any strong side draw. So long as you draw straight up out of the holster and transition to downrange, what can you call?

 I have been shooting Duelist for a bit over 30 years and to solve the RO misunderstanding of these simple rules I  stand with left foot slightly  ahead of right foot like when you shoot a long gun easy simple fix for a right handed shooter ,If a lefty do the opposite.:FlagAm:

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Dan if you're muzzle direction is breaking the 170 horizontally you can be called regardless of whether you're within the 180 vertically.  I've never seen a crossdraw shooter pull a gun out of a canted holster and have it come out with the muzzle straight down.  I'm sure it could be done, but I haven't seen it and I used to be a pretty decent crossdraw shooter myself.  I always mounted my crossdraw holster pretty close to my center line and took a left foot forward stance.  That prevented the need for 'the dance'. 

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

When drawing a revolver, the muzzle may be oriented into the straight down (180°) as it clears leather; but must then go immediately into the downrange 170° (and vice versa on the return). These restrictions against breaking the downrange 180° angle apply to all holsters and methods of draw/re-holster. This allowance applies to all types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to cross draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs. 
 

So, you have an allowance to break the 170 vertically, but you don't have an allowance to break it horizontally.  Keep in mind my original quotation to you specifically stated that crossdraw shooters must twist their body if necessary to ensure their muzzle NEVER breaks the 170.

 

Go to a major match and fail to do that and there's a good chance you'll get a DQ and you'll have earned it.

A lot of ROs seem to ignore the "if necessary" part of that rule. They only look for the twist movement of the shooters body, not where the pistol is actually pointed. I have done one major match and have never gotten any safety violations.

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6 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 I have been shooting Duelist for a bit over 30 years and to solve the RO misunderstanding of these simple rules I  stand with left foot slightly  ahead of right foot like when you shoot a long gun easy simple fix for a right handed shooter ,If a lefty do the opposite.:FlagAm:

And that is exactly what I do.

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7 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Dan if you're muzzle direction is breaking the 170 horizontally you can be called regardless of whether you're within the 180 vertically.  I've never seen a crossdraw shooter pull a gun out of a canted holster and have it come out with the muzzle straight down.  I'm sure it could be done, but I haven't seen it and I used to be a pretty decent crossdraw shooter myself.  I always mounted my crossdraw holster pretty close to my center line and took a left foot forward stance.  That prevented the need for 'the dance'. 

Exactly. 15 degrees is not much of a cant and as soon as the action clears leather the pistol is pointed straight down, just sideways, then twist as you bring it up on target.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
2 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

Exactly. 15 degrees is not much of a cant and as soon as the action clears leather the pistol is pointed straight down, just sideways, then twist as you bring it up on target.

 And if you are standing with the left foot forward that means your drawn revolver is now in front of your body and if anyone is swept it is you so what is the problem?

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3 hours ago, Ranger Dan said:

I love this... I never said anything about breaking the 180, the rule is against breaking the 170 and the exception is when drawing and holstering. So how can you call a violation for breaking the 170 when drawing or holstering? I really do want clarification because I have had ROs say "you need to do the dance just cuz you crossdraw". I disagree, I use a 15 degree canted holster just left of the buckle, I draw the pistol straight up, pointed 180 degrees straight down just like the strong side holster and immediately transition to downrange. I could be facing left and pivot as I draw and still not break the 180 just like any strong side draw. So long as you draw straight up out of the holster and transition to downrange, what can you call?

You do understand that you may break the 170 while holstering/reholstering, but only up to 180. 

 

If an RO says you have to dance, then he/she needs to take a refresher course...

 

Phantom

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Gents, thank you for your input. You have confirmed what I am doing is correct and Legal. Just one more thing I would like to point out. Where is the RO standing when you draw? Usually behind you. Can you actually see the draw? No. So how can you call a violation if you can't see it? "Because he didn't do the dance". That is actually what some ROs are looking for. Not trying to bash ROs, just inform them that if you want to make this call please actually see what you are calling.

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1 hour ago, Ranger Dan said:

Gents, thank you for your input. You have confirmed what I am doing is correct and Legal. Just one more thing I would like to point out. Where is the RO standing when you draw? Usually behind you. Can you actually see the draw? No. So how can you call a violation if you can't see it? "Because he didn't do the dance". That is actually what some ROs are looking for. Not trying to bash ROs, just inform them that if you want to make this call please actually see what you are calling.

It's not as hard as you might think... And 15 degrees might push the 30 degree rule depending on how it's worn.

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On 3/3/2019 at 6:05 PM, Tyrel Cody said:

What on Earth makes you think we can have a non argumentative thread? :lol:

 

 

I've shot two matches with a crossdraw, positioned so there is no dance moves. Currently I've switched back to double strong side because my belly gets in the way of my crossdraw holsters.

 

You called that haha.

 

I think cross draw looks cooler but I skipped even trying cross draw due to the dunlop (belly donlopped over my belt).  Swapping hands is pretty easy for me so far anyway.

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