Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum
Sign in to follow this  
Hoss

WTC double cocking GF

Recommended Posts

Is he cheating?

He is the designated "berm god" unless it is a large match with predesignated "berm gods".

So his word is final?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ringer,

The TO can call a 'P' on a shooter, even if the 3 spotters didn't call it. 

 

And if ALL 3 spotters 'suggest' a 'P', the TO can refuse it.   

 

I've witnessed all 3 spotters making a wrong call before BECAUSE all of them misunderstood the shooting

scenerio/sequence.

Thank goodness the TO knew what was going on.

 

..........Widder

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I think those type things get handled at the local level.  I know when I was an MD there were instances where I received reports of bad calls by TOs and when I investigated and determined that what was reported had in fact occurred I ensured those people didn't run the timer anymore.  

I have had this experience.

Exactly what we did on the posse level. We just made sure he only had to take care of his posse marshal duties.

I don't think he had a clue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Ringer said:

Is he cheating?

He is the designated "berm god" unless it is a large match with predesignated "berm gods".

So his word is final?

SHB Page 24

During the course of fire, a shooter may on occasion incur penalties which need to be assessed. The immediate authority on the stage to that end is the Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO), assisted by the input of the spotters......The CRO/TO may unilaterally assign penalties for safety violations and procedural errors when they have clearly occurred (this does not include assessing misses). Assessing misses is purely in the purview of the spotters.

 

In the event a competitor feels a CRO/TO’s ruling is in error or has been unfairly assessed, and the firearms have been made safe and unloaded, the ruling may be politely and calmly appealed, initially to the CRO/TO and/or Posse Marshal, and only by the competitor involved.

 

If you aren't the competitor you can't appeal a ruling that you believe was in error.  So if a P should have been called on the shooter and the TO overrides it, you have no recourse unless you're the shooter and want to appeal for some reason.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

SHB Page 24

During the course of fire, a shooter may on occasion incur penalties which need to be assessed. The immediate authority on the stage to that end is the Chief Range Officer/Timer Operator (CRO/TO), assisted by the input of the spotters......The CRO/TO may unilaterally assign penalties for safety violations and procedural errors when they have clearly occurred (this does not include assessing misses). Assessing misses is purely in the purview of the spotters.

 

In the event a competitor feels a CRO/TO’s ruling is in error or has been unfairly assessed, and the firearms have been made safe and unloaded, the ruling may be politely and calmly appealed, initially to the CRO/TO and/or Posse Marshal, and only by the competitor involved.

 

If you aren't the competitor you can't appeal a ruling that you believe was in error.  So if a P should have been called on the shooter and the TO overrides it, you have no recourse unless you're the shooter and want to appeal for some reason.

 

And there lies the rub.

Edited by Ringer
Sp

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Long time getting there but thanks Captain Bill Burt.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ringer said:

And ther in lies the rub.

Well, yer a TG...so start lobbying for a change.

 

What I don't understand is that this procedural rule has been in place for ever...or at least for a LONG time. Why is it all of a sudden some kind of shock that it exists?

 

Phantom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would have asked the TO if he had HEARD 10 shots,, not that he knew all ten had been fired,,,   

 

if he couldn't say he heard them, and still went with no call, see that he was replaced,,,,,  rules iz rules

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 And another cut .:(:FlagAm:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wouldn't checking the timer be the final decision maker? If the timer didn't pick up 10 pistol shots it's a P.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Caboose said:

Wouldn't checking the timer be the final decision maker? If the timer didn't pick up 10 pistol shots it's a P.

NO!!!!

 

Timers suck at that...some will throw in an instant .01 second first shot that never existed...position of the timer is critical...etc, etc.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

I would have asked the TO if he had HEARD 10 shots,, not that he knew all ten had been fired,,,   

 

if he couldn't say he heard them, and still went with no call, see that he was replaced,,,,,  rules iz rules

 

Howdy ShyAnnie.

Are you suggesting that if you have a TO who is doing their job, according to the manner which TO are suppose

to do, and you don't agree with it, they should be replaced?

 

What if a shooter has a TO who doesn't know how to properly operate or hold the timer?

Do you replace them?

 

..........Widder

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The spotters are to do the count of misses.  The TO cannot overrule that.  IF the spotters cannot determine separate shots from a GF and are not allowed to call a P, then they should consider calling misses for any round they could not know was a separate round.

 

I guess a better question is:

Do gunfighters have to follow the rules?

 

Some hate this rule and have been challenging and even breaking it regularly for several years. 

 

Do we want to allow that, even encourage that?

 

If so, can I also get exceptions for a couple rules for my category? 

I don't like being called about an empty shotgun shell stove-piping in my 97 such that it could not be closed and fired even if it were a live shell.  The shell is obviously empty, the action cannot be closed.  It is actually safer than merely an open gun.

 

So can I make my own rule for my category?

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Thanks Smokestack.

I've also made that same point twice in this thread and its obvious very few can grasp this aspect of 

the game.

 

..........Widder

 

I'll make the same point a different way.

If the spotters are not yelling "ONE MORE",  then they heard ten shots!

By their silence they have agreed that ten shots went down range.

 

Spotters are to ADVISE the Timing Operator on a Procedural call. The TO takes this information and applies it to what he/she saw/heard and may also take into consideration warnings he/she might have given in private concerning the shooter. This type of call is serious and can swing a large match several places in the scoring. The Timing operator then makes his/her call and the match moves on.

 

Calls like this can vary from Timer Operator to Timer Operator, from hearing ability of any of the four judges involved, and even the observation abilities of the person watching the gun. 

 

It's a GAME folks. Bad calls are made. In over a dozen years of running a timer I have seen very few shooters say to me after they are done with their last gun, "The spotters are wrong. I missed the third target. I want the penalty. I have never had a shooter say to me, "I spot the targets out of order and I need to collect my Procedural."  The TO can't overrule the spotters on misses..... Well then. Can the shooter give input that overrules the spotters? (Right now. Only if he can change their minds. The spotters are the judge and jury on misses.)

 

PLAY THE GAME.

Sometimes you're the bug. Sometimes you are the windshield.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

PULLEZE !!!

 

The rule to discern each shot from a Gunfighter has been in place FOREVER!!  There are those who argue down to the millisecond.  It's simple.  If the TO/RO can't discern separate shots to facilitate scoring ..... its a P.  Whom gets to flung dung is immaterial.

 

OH ... almost forgot .... PLUS ONE to PHANTOM'S LAST TWO

 

PSS:  Before going off half-cocked, would it bee too much trouble to ask youz guyz to take a minute and read the Handbook ...... FIRST??

 

Edited by Colorado Coffinmaker
add comment

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some months back, I was called for two misses when I double cocked and fired almost together.  I knew there were no misses so I asked the TO which ones I missed.  He said, "I couldn't hear separate shots.  We always call two misses when someone does that." 

 

WRONG!  I told him it was a "P", as he was heading to the Western Regional in a week and would likely make the wrong call on someone else who did the same thing.  I was fine with the "P", I wasn't fine with called misses when no one saw any.  

 

The biggest problem with simultaneous shots is keeping track of the order of hits.  It is very easy to fire out of order when firing that quickly.  While a TO can watch for double recoil, is he/she sure the hits were in the right order?  It makes for a long day.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some have made a comment concerning eliminating the rule.   

 

Some have commented on spotters, etc...

 

Some have commented on what the rule states and the Penalty involved.

 

BUT... when the OP states the actual situation, the TO was the person (not the spotters or the Pnut Gallery) 

who is required to make the final call, of which the TO ruled it 'Clean'.

 

I see no discrepancy in how it was handled any different than I've witnessed it handled for 14+ years.

 

I don't see a problem.

 

..........Widder

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Some have made a comment concerning eliminating the rule.   

 

Some have commented on spotters, etc...

 

Some have commented on what the rule states and the Penalty involved.

 

BUT... when the OP states the actual situation, the TO was the person (not the spotters or the Pnut Gallery) 

who is required to make the final call, of which the TO ruled it 'Clean'.

 

I see no discrepancy in how it was handled any different than I've witnessed it handled for 14+ years.

 

I don't see a problem.

 

..........Widder

 

I agree so long as the TO knew what they were doing... But I have my doubts.

 

:P

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a BS call from crybaby spotters that occurs all too often.

 

My pard is one of the top gunfighters in this region and I saw him receive a procedural at two state matches because of this scenario. He is not one to challenge a call but it is very discouraging and he has quit shooting gunfighter because of it. He does not double cock - double shoot per se, but may get too close with two shots in one string.

 

This weekend I was the only gunfighter on the range. I was shooting a three target stage (targets are spread very far apart) 4-2-4. It was a round count, but everyone shot 1-1-1-1-2-2-3-3-3-3. I shot 1-3-1-3-1-3-1-3-2-2 and three spotters called it a "P" because they didn't follow which target I was shooting next and didn't pay attention to "round count" because everyone else before me shot it as a sweep.

 

Wehen shooting gunfighter it is harder to double tap a single target versus two separated targets in a round count. Round counts give gunfighters a slightly vantage. Other sequences give gunfighters a significant disadvantage.

 

Just because spotters cannot keep track of what you're shooting at, does not make it a miss or a "P". The benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter in all cases. If you don't see the miss it's not a miss just because you didn't see it.

 

I double cock but I do not double shoot. I have seen shooters like Lead Ringer and few others that intentionally double shoot, because no one cares that they do at a monthly match. There's a difference between intentionally double shooting, and sequencing a little too fast to perceive.

In a state match we try to shoot as fast as possible and sometimes significantly close the gap between trigger pulls. Just because as a spotter you can't keep up, would be the same as calling a miss or procedural on a traditional shooter whom you can't keep up with (wich never happens).

 

Contrary to popular belief, double caulking is not faster than sequential shooting. In double caulking you're only doing one thing at a time. You're shooting two and then your caulking two. In sequential shooting your shooting one and caulking the other at the exact same time. The average time between shots is less, but it takes more practice.

Double shooting is also less accurate because you can only aim one gun at a time but your shooting both at the same time. Therefore a greater possibility of a miss. So the really is, there is no great advantage for gunfighters except from those perceiving the disadvantage to themselves.

If gunfighter poses such a disadvantage to all other shooters then why is the category allowed in the first place? Because it is not as perceived.

 

As posted, why are black powder shooters not restricted because the increased difficulty to both shooters and spotters? It is just as hard for the shooter to hit two targets at the same time as it is for a spotter to view two targets at the same time. Just deal with it! There are three spotters that can view from three different angles to identify a miss. If three sets of eyes cannot positively identify a miss, there is no miss in accordance with the rules. Because your brain is not efficient in discerning the spacing between two gunshots it poses a potential "P". The reason for the rule is that you cannot distinguish a miss. A miss is not determined by sound only.

  • Like 1
  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

I'll make the same point a different way.

If the spotters are not yelling "ONE MORE",  then they heard ten shots!

By their silence they have agreed that ten shots went down range.

 

Spotters are to ADVISE the Timing Operator on a Procedural call. The TO takes this information and applies it to what he/she saw/heard and may also take into consideration warnings he/she might have given in private concerning the shooter. This type of call is serious and can swing a large match several places in the scoring. The Timing operator then makes his/her call and the match moves on.

 

Calls like this can vary from Timer Operator to Timer Operator, from hearing ability of any of the four judges involved, and even the observation abilities of the person watching the gun. 

 

It's a GAME folks. Bad calls are made. In over a dozen years of running a timer I have seen very few shooters say to me after they are done with their last gun, "The spotters are wrong. I missed the third target. I want the penalty. I have never had a shooter say to me, "I spot the targets out of order and I need to collect my Procedural."  The TO can't overrule the spotters on misses..... Well then. Can the shooter give input that overrules the spotters? (Right now. Only if he can change their minds. The spotters are the judge and jury on misses.)

 

PLAY THE GAME.

Sometimes you're the bug. Sometimes you are the windshield.

 

 

 

 

I’ve called procedurals on myself when nobody else does, just seems like the right thing to do if I know I screwed up. I’ve had TO’s refuse to give me the procedural also because they didn’t see it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Howdy ShyAnnie.

Are you suggesting that if you have a TO who is doing their job, according to the manner which TO are suppose

to do, and you don't agree with it, they should be replaced?

 

What if a shooter has a TO who doesn't know how to properly operate or hold the timer?

Do you replace them?

 

..........Widder

 

I am suggesting, ask the TO if he HEARD 10 shots,,,, not if he knew all ten were fired.....     the rules must be followed, ie a perceivable difference in shots fired,,,   how you hold the  timer isn't a rule, just proper training

 

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

The spotters are to do the count of misses.  The TO cannot overrule that.  IF the spotters cannot determine separate shots from a GF and are not allowed to call a P, then they should consider calling misses for any round they could not know was a separate round.

 

I guess a better question is:

Do gunfighters have to follow the rules?

Sorry, but I can't see calling misses where I don't think there is one. If I'm TO'ing and one of my spotters does that, he will be given a different job. A spotter this weekend called one miss and a P after my stage. TO told him I didn't P so he changed his call to 2 misses. That's fine on me, but it wont happen to a shooter Im timing. Over once anyway. I'd never advocate giving misses where there isn't one. If theres a problem I would try to solve it, not make up misses for a penalty.

Edited by Tennessee williams
Trying to be nicer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
28 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Sorry, but I can't see calling misses where I don't think there is one. If I'm TO'ing and one of my spotters does that, he will be given a different job. A spotter this weekend called one miss and a P after my stage. TO told him I didn't P so he changed his call to 2 misses. That's fine on me, but it wont happen to a shooter Im timing. Over once anyway. I'd never advocate giving misses where there isn't one. If theres a problem I would try to solve it, not make up misses for a penalty.

I'm with you on that one TW.  I would ask the spotter why he changed his call from one miss to two misses, seems odd.

 

I had something similar happen to me at Back at Cha two years ago.  One spotter called a P on me and the TO immediately said, 'no there was no P'.  The spotter then replied "OK then I have 1 miss".

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems there is quite a bit of dissent brewing this winter. Might be a lack of B vitamins. ;) :FlagAm:

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good point, Cheyenne.

 

Plus the explanation about the need for separate shots is NOT for the T.O.  The T.O. is not to be spotting.  The rule is to help the spotters do their job properly.

 

So we have a situation where the T.O. won't call a procedure but the stoppers cannot realistically know if the hits were made or the sequence was proper.

When you combine the double shot with the "you have to give me the benefit of any doubt" you are allowing some of the gunfighters to get away with breaking the rule.

 

As you can see, some really appear to want to avoid that rule.  

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

Seems there is quite a bit of dissent brewing this winter. Might be a lack of B vitamins. ;) :FlagAm:

Save the bandwidth, stop with "Winter" comments already... We get it.

 

There's a contradiction in the role of the TO. They are not required per se to count shots. Yet they are being asked in this case to count shots in order to properly make a call on a GF double shot.

 

Interesting...

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

16 days till SPRING. :P :FlagAm:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Holy Cow, we're heading towards Pop Corn time:P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Holy Cow, we're heading towards Pop Corn time:P

 

 

 Buttered I hope. :FlagAm:

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was Match Director. There was a GF pulling both triggers at once. Maybe not possible to do, but that was his intent. Timer picked up 5 shots; spotters heard 5 shots. Gave 5 misses. TO Knew both guns fired and there were no obvious signs of any misses so he got a P. Right call. When I was informed of what was going on I reminded everyone involved about the progressive penalties and that next time would be an SDQ. I  didn't hear anything more about it. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The rules seems to me very clear: From the Handbook in the category rules for GF: "Both revolvers may be cocked at the same time but must be shot one at a time to facilitate scoring. This rule at one time said should be shot one at a time, and there was no penalty for shooting both at once. Apparently this was enough of a concern that the rule was changed and the progressive penalty associated with it.  What seems UNCLEAR is who it has to as different shots. The peanut gallery has NO say in any call as far as I can find (with the possible exception of being swept by a shooter, and from what I am reading: all three spotters can say that they could not differentiate between the shots, but the TO says he could and there is a NO CALL?  This may be totally correct, but doesn't seem quite right. IN MY OPINION it makes no difference if the shooter FIRED 10 shots or not---the question is did he fire them one shot at a time as the rules dictate? If I read the OP correctly the P was not called for not firing enough rounds but for firing them in 5 simultaneous 2 shot strings. This IS a violation of the current rule and is a progressive penalty. If this rule should/should not be in place is another discussion. We play by the rules that are in place at the time, and it is currently NO DOUBLE FIRING. As far as things being subjective: If one spotter says a miss and two spotters say a hit--isn't that subjective, maybe depending on the spotters relative position? 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We only have the OP's comment about hearing 5 simultaneous shots.

 

If anyone wants to ask the TO if he/she either heard or saw the 10 shots, then that particular

TO would need to make a comment if they so choose.

 

Everyone keeps telling all of us what the rules say, of which we are all aware. 

But for some reason, it seems some don't like the part about the TO making (or not making) the 'P' call

based on the TO's personal observations.

 

But, we weren't there and the rules gave the TO the 'responsibility' to make the call on this particular

situation.   Like it or not,  the TO did the job.

 

Fire him/her if you want.   Prohibit anyone with a hearing deficiency from being a TO in the future.

Put on the Wire all of your displeasures with every TO that is trying to make good efforts to help

with posse duties.

 

Shooter was 'clean'.    

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

As you can see, some really appear to want to avoid that rule.  

Wish I could keep quiet but y'all are jumping up and down on my ex-husband nerve.  I come from the generation that believes what happens on the line is what goes on the score sheet.  With sincerest apologies to my honest gunfightin' pards.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Ringer said:

So a TO can overrule a valid P?

I hate to put it this way... but it's not a valid "P" until the TO calls it as such.

12 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

When I'm running the timer and I clearly saw 10 leave the pistols but are close, but distinct, I'll get with the spotters and tell them what I saw.  I cannot overrule them but I can provide info like we do with an edge hit.

 

If the double cocker is shooting shots close to simultaneous, I'll let he/she know it's too close and the spotters may be calling misses or I may have to call a P.  Two close is if I don't see one gun recoil before the other.  I can't always get into position to see that, but I try.

Wrong... As the TO, you can only NOT over-rule the spotters as far as misses are concerned.  Spotters should be listened to when considering other penalties, (as TO I can't see everything and be everywhere), but the TO is the one to make every other call.  Input from spotters is invaluable, but it is not sacrosanct as it is in regards to misses. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

The T.O. can certainly give his/her input to the spotters about how many shots he/she thought were fired. The Spotters do NOT have to accept that input.  If a 2 Spotters said "5 misses", then the shooter gets 5 misses. He can certainly appeal it, but won't get anywhere. We had a fellow a few years back that would shoot both pistols at the same time. It was impossible to determine how many shots were fired. This caused a GREAT deal of problems all over the Western and NW region. He refused to stop doing it, and after continuing to receive lots of misses, he walked off the field one day and has never been back.  The rules are pretty clear. A GF can either follow them or not.

 

Snakebite 

Edited by Snakebite
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.