Tyfoon Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Hi, I'm new to the forum and a pretty newby when it comes to SASS. My question: I own a medium frame Colt Lightning 44-40 in very good condition. Serial 18453 (according to colt from 1886). I would prefer to fire the so called 'Cowboy Action Loads' in it. For instance from MachTech. These have muzzle velocity of 722FPS. There are also western loads of 1180FPS. Can I shoot these cartridges in the Lightning or should I only use self made blackpowder cartridges (as these ar not commercially available where I live)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 BP only I would think. Don’t risk an old gun. I also like APP. lots of smoke, not as much fire tho! I’ve used 777, but it is friskier than BP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 BP ONLY OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cemetery Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 I'd recommend rollin' your own, with APP, nice and smokey black powder substitute , and soft lead bullets, from places like Desperado. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 Welcome to the Wire! and the best game there is! I'd only use BP if it were my gun. Where are you from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyfoon Posted March 3, 2019 Author Share Posted March 3, 2019 I see some consensus on BP only. Is this because you think the gun can't take the light nitro loads from a safety perspective? p.s. I'm from The Netherlands. Not sure if you can get APP here (assuming you refer to american pioneer powder). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 While I will only run black in an antique revolver, running a mild smokeless round in an old rifle might be okay, depending on several factors. Remember, there is a LOT more steel surrounding a rifle chamber than a revolver's. Even so, I would not shoot factory cowboy loads. My experience with them is they are just standard modern loadings, albeit with cast bullets. I'd say develop your own reduced power loads. My Lightning in .44-40 is an AWA so that's not as issue for me. But my antique Colt is a .32-20. It digests my smokeless handloads fine, but they are reduced power. Lightnings are great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 19 hours ago, Tyfoon said: Hi, I'm new to the forum and a pretty newby when it comes to SASS. My question: I own a medium frame Colt Lightning 44-40 in very good condition. Serial 18453 (according to colt from 1886). I would prefer to fire the so called 'Cowboy Action Loads' in it. For instance from MachTech. These have muzzle velocity of 722FPS. There are also western loads of 1180FPS. Can I shoot these cartridges in the Lightning or should I only use self made blackpowder cartridges (as these ar not commercially available where I live)? In the beginning there was black powder......in the end, there should be only black powder!!! seriously though....... I think black powder is self explanatory but here is a tad bit about smokeless loads. In 1895 Winchester first offered smokeless powder for the 44-40 (as we call it today) and was specifically used in the Winchester 73'. Winchester used Dupont #2 which was a bulk powder that occupied the same space as black powder. It was warned on the new red labled ammo boxes that this new smokeless powder was not to be used in revolvers. This new powder gave the 44-40 a blistering 1,300fps velocity. Dupont #2 had a similar burn rate as today's IMR-4227, however, IMR-4227 is NOT a bulk powder and is ironiocally IMR's magnum powder (I am not done yet). One reason Dupont #2 may not have been safe for revolvers is because the powder was not treated with a flame-deterrent coating that would retard burning. This allowed for a very sharp pressure spike. Reasons folks claim that this powder was not to be used in revolvers is only speculation, hearsay with no facts other than the box labels warning against such use...but blown up guns over the years can't be ruled out. Actual historical pressure I have never seen. By the early 1900's Dupont #2 was quickly replaced with L&R Sharpshooter powder that was specifically used in black powder frame firearms. Sharpshooter was coated with a flame-deterrent coating that would retard burning. This new powder actually created a pressure spike less than that of black powder. In 1913, RS80 (Sporting Rifle 80) powder was also used. Both powders had a burn rate similar to today's 2400 powder....ironically another magnum powder (now I am almost done). Both IMR-4227 and 2400 have a much easier pressure spike than Dupont#2 and resemble black powder pressure curves......but in no way are they "bulk" powders like their predecessors. After Sharpshooter and SR80 was discontinued after fueling millions of 44-40 cartridges up till at least the 1950s, they too were replaced. Winchester started using W630 which is also similar to 2400 but Remington continued to use Sharpshooter for a while longer. If anyone has noticed, these are all slower burning, bulkier...not bulk...rifle powders. faster burning pistol powders create a much sharper pressure spike. Trailboss has a sharp pressure spike as well as Unique. Using ANY published loads such as a current publication of Lyman's manuals are perfectly safe in old original black powder era rifles AND REVOLVERS AS LONG AS THEY ARE IN GOOD OPERATING CONDITION which is always subject to opinion. This is exactly why SAAMI set the MAP to 11,000psi. The weak link in the 44-40 family is the early black powder frame revolvers. This is the absolute simplest I can make this and it is, in reality......there much much more information.Personally I have no desire to use other than black powder in my pre-1900 firearms....BUT if I do, it will never be fast burning pistol powders to include Trailboss. Red Dot and Trailboss are two of the fastest burning powders out there. I think it is important to learn the history of the cartridge of which I am still learning. Pressure Spike Graph 1 IMR-4759 Pressure Spike Graph 2 Trailboss 44-40 Early Smokeless Powder History Don't let the name Cowboy Action Shooting fool you, just because the velocity is low does not mean the pressures/pressure curves are low!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 I had one made in 1894 in 44-40 and ran a 200 grain bullet with 4.5 grains Red Dot and it did just fine. Trail Boss works well also but back during the powder depression a few years ago I couldn’t find it so switched to Red Dot because I had a bunch of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duster Tom Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 I have an original Lightning in 38/40. I use a 200 Gr. bullet over the minimum load of 4.5 Gr of Trail Boss with no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savvy Jack Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 And another thing to add. Back when the 44-40 was conceived, it was a rifle cartridge (still is according to SAAMI). It was designed specifically for a rifle. During and after 1895, it used rifle powder. With the exception of Dupont #2, all of those rifle powders, to include black powder...had a shallow pressure curve. Today's rifle powders also have a shallow pressure curve when used appropriately in the large volume black powder 44-40 cartridge. I can not give loads on here but since the old powder is no longer manufactured, Dupont#2 was a bulk load like black powder but only used 17gr by weight. It was said to be loaded the same as black powder as a direct replacement. Current powders, like 2400 and IMR-4227, (with a similar burn rate as Dupont#2) are more dense and not bulk powders but still use a hefty load compared to pistol powders. 2400 and IMR-4227 powders don't quite deliver the same original velocity without slightly increasing the charge BUT that creates slightly higher pressures than SAAMI's current 11,000psi map and a sharper pressure spike. (my English skills are lacking) Some powder charges are close to their predecessors in burn rate and take up less volume with similar charges. Loading current powders too hefty can create the sharp pressure spikes and curves that are similar to Dupont #2 and pistol powders like Trailboss, Red Dot and Unique. Dupont #2 was deemed safe for the Winchester 73 by Winchester....as is modern powders, so says Lyman's 49th handloading manual!! An unnoticed double charge of pistol powder can be catastrophic where as a double charge of rifle powder will overflow the case. If I did my math correct, I am only seeing a $8 difference in a box of loaded cartridge between using Unique and the rifle powder of my choosing. For those of you that shoot one match per month, that's an extra $96 a year for max charge ammo. A lot less than the cost of a blown up firearm. Blown SASS/CAS Firearms Lyman lists 19 rifles chambered for the 44-40 of which about half are safe with higher than standard pressure loads. The Colt Lighting is listed as a weaker Group I rifle. Marlin's 1889, 1894 along with Winchester's 1892 and 1894 are in Group II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 IMHO, an original Colt Lightning (rifle) "in good condition" is a wonderful thing to own, and would best saved for your gun cabinet and occasional plinking. Pedersoli makes a very nice clone in .44-40 that you won't feel as bad about dropping on a table, and dinging it from time to time. I'm jealous! .RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted March 6, 2019 Share Posted March 6, 2019 1 minute ago, Roger Rapid said: IMHO, an original Colt Lightning (rifle) "in good condition" is a wonderful thing to own, and would best saved for your gun cabinet and occasional plinking. Pedersoli makes a very nice clone in .44-40 that you won't feel as bad about dropping on a table, and dinging it from time to time. I'm jealous! .RR RR, you’re correct to a degree but that Colt Lightning rifle that I had was a great match rifle, never a failure to feed or cartridge under the lifter like some I’ve had. I’ll have another someday but until then my Pedersolis are a very fine match rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted March 7, 2019 Share Posted March 7, 2019 Yul Lose... Yes, I agree that they are great match rifles, and it is amazing how well the original Colts run. My only concern was on shooting an "original" in our sport where things get banged up both on and off the firing line (unless they go in one of your carts, of course!!!). When I first started shooting CAS, I was using an original great-condition first-gen Colt SAA in .32-20 (180,xxx sr#) that I've had since I was a teenager. A cowpoke friend got my attention by telling me what is was worth and alerted me to Uberti's for $600. So, I guess I'm just reflecting on that. I guess I'm just jealous as all get-out they Typhoon is shooing one and having fun! RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyfoon Posted March 8, 2019 Author Share Posted March 8, 2019 Thanks all for the great comment. The Colt also costed me an "arm and a leg" as we say and just something very nice to have. Just feels stupid to have a gun like this and not shoot it! It seems I now need to start digging into re-load equipment. A whole new area for me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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