Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

WTC - RO Card


Bushy Blonco

Recommended Posts

I have recently been told that the penalties listed on the RO Pocket Card (SHB pg. 42) are only assessed on the firing line. Specifically: sweeping with an unloaded gun, or a dropped unloaded gun are SDQs on the firing line, but no-calls anywhere else. 

 
Most of the violations listed on the RO Card can only occur on the firing line, but there are others that can occur elsewhere (sweeping with unloaded gun, dropped unloaded gun, loading at other than designated location, belligerent attitude).
 
 
My question is: 
 
Do any of the penalties listed on the RO Card apply off the firing line? And which ones? Are the five I listed above no-calls with warnings only?
 
I want to be clear and consistent with how our rules are applied. 
 
I apologize if I have missed the answer in the SHB or if this has been covered elsewhere. 
Thanks!
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most of those you listed are for the firing line only. But, there's always a but, but can be covered with the Unsafe Gun Handling rule.  As far as Belligerent Attitude - that can and should be dealt with where ever it occurs, just bring it up to the range officials.

 

BS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

don't sweep anyone, anytime  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the replies.

 

My question is do any of the penalties apply when not on the firing line (firing line being from the LT to cleared at the ULT).

We all agree that saftey rules apply everywhere, but are the penalties listed on the RO Card to be assessed for rules violations that occur when a shooter is not on the firing line? 

 

Thanks again

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Beligerant attitude can be enforced wherever it occurs.  The rest of the penalties listed are for on the line only.

 

BS

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bushy Blonco. I think the way to look at it is the SASS rules apply to coarse of fire and the firing line.  Different ranges and clubs have there own rules about conduct on there range and behind the firing line. Dropping a revolver from your gun cart before going to the loading table would not be covered under SASS rules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The pocket reference card is NOT a complete rule book.  It covers MOST penalties, but NOT ALL!  And it does not get updated as frequently as the rule books do.

 

If you treat the card as a quick way to look for the proper penalty to apply when you KNOW what the rule violation is, it's a good tool.   But it's not comprehensive.   Realize there are penalties not found on the card.

 

Some of the actions deserving corrective action while away from the firing line include:

 

Having a loaded gun (round in chamber or cylinder) away from the firing line will be one safety violation that applies "away from the line."   This would be, during the conduct of a match, a MDQ  IMHO, although the rules I believe are actually silent on the penalty.   I have witnessed the declaration at several EOT events that if you have a loaded firearm with you at the start of an event, the shooter is required to see the match director for a decision about the consequences.

 

Match director permission to remove a malfunctioning firearm that is still loaded from the firing line (from LT to ULT) is required.

 

Dry firing firearms in any area not designated as a safe area for dry firing.

 

Many of the "proscribed behavior" rules apply away from and on the firing line, such as:

* refusal to wear eye protection

* capping percussion revolvers off the firing line (LT through ULT).   Cylinders can be loaded with powder and ball, but not capped.

* non-competitors wearing firearms

* belligerent attitude or unsportsmanlike conduct
* shooting under the influence of alcohol, prescription drugs, or any substance or medication that may impair the shooters physical or mental abilities

 

Most of these behavior rules are "do it this way or leave."   One warning is sufficient; the shooter must immediately correct action or they are removed from range.   Chemicals in one's system - no correction possible, thus immediate removal. 

 

Good luck, GJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks to all for the clarifications, I appreciate you taking the time to reply. The beauty of this game is being able to show up at a match anywhere knowing the rules and their application are consistent across the country (and the world!)

 

Two questions:

 

1) Is this a fair summary of what I'm hearing?

 

While there are many infractions that warrant verbal warnings, the few penalties that should be assessed off-the-Firing-Line would be: 

belligerent attitude (MDQ), preparing to shoot while under the influence (MDQ), or events that involve having a loaded gun off the firing line (e.g. Loading at other than designated location (SDQ), any discharge of a firearm other than supervised downrange (MDQ).)

 

Another question:

2) How many times do you warn someone about safety violations you see off the line before telling them to put their guns away for the day (MDQ)? For instance, sweeping someone while off the line. 

 

I'm sure it depends on the range, and the situation, but what's the general consensus at a SASS match? Two warnings and the third time you're out?

 

Thanks. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bushy Blonco… No Rule Book can cover every possible "What If" situation. For many years (as least when I was involved) we tried to lay the ground work for Match Officials to oversee the match that they are officiating at. Many things are indeed cut and dried so to speak, but also many things are subjective and require that the official use something that we can not teach or write down... that is common sense. We always must remember that "Right or Wrong", the Match Director can do ANYTHING  that he/she wants. They are the final authority at their match. I've seen two cases where a round has been fired in the Camping area.... in both cases the shooter received a MDQ... yet it is difficult to point directly at a rule to cover that situation. IMO, a general statement about rules might be that they apply while the shooter is actually participating in the match., however.... as you can see, there are times when things happen off of the Firing line and even apart from the match itself that must be dealt with. I have always encouraged people to cut all the slack that they could when it comes to enforcing the rules. Try to find a reason to NOT punish the shooter, if possible ... but don't go so far as to disregard the rules.  So... I say address what you need to address. Knowing the rules and the intent of the rules will help everyone to make the best call that they can make.

 

Snakebite

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

For instance, sweeping someone while off the line. 

 

This is not a safety violation per the rules.   But it is poor gun handling technique.    So, it's up to the posse marshal or match director to decide how to handle this.   Let's say it's unintentional (apparently) with a  shooter who is occasionally careless, and guns are unloaded.   As posse marshal I would give a warning first time, a "last chance warning" the next time, and take the offense to the match director the third time for his consent to issue a MDQ for unsafe gun handling.

 

Someone intentionally waving unloaded guns around without showing any concern or remorse, I'd be recommending the MDQ on first offense.. 

 

A dropped unloaded revolver sweeps across a posse member as it falls.   IF NEEDED, just a warning.     I've seen more than 20 gun carts tipped over and guns thrown in all directions at major matches, and the main thing that is said is "Can I help you with your cart?"   "Let's get these guns picked up and checked for dirt in action or barrel."

 

What makes those situations different?   How serious is the problem, and can the shooter comprehend, then carry out, the proper gun handling if I turn my back on him/her for 5 minutes.

 

We don't have a specific rule for "sweeping someone away from the firing line", and that is normally a good thing.   As per Snakebite's comments, a rule for every situation that we would like to prevent would make the rule book impossible to carry around.   We've got most high-risk situations covered, and we've got posse marshals and match directors to handle the rest with a reasonable and safety minded call. 

 

Good luck, GJ

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Many of the off line scenarios, described here, (between the LT and the ULT etc.) in my view, should be covered by the range's rules.

Here in Canada, they are normally quite strict, due to our government's stance on all private firearm ownership.

Most ranges here are one step away from a shut-down for cause, making range operators pretty anal about all gun handling.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bushy brings up a good topic and the responses are valuable. Snakebite talks about ways to "not punish the shooter" (which I agree with), and Garrison Joe points to an MDQ for someone intentionally violating the rules (which I also agree with). This brings up the question of dealing with someone who is either beligerant or reckless and asking them leave the match, knowing that they are armed - for lack of a better word. Have any of you ever faced a situation where you were concerned about someone that you have had to ask to leave the match, and they weren't very happy about your call?

 

RR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

TBJ...

If you are referring to my post, consider a situation where:

 

... a shooter is showing his new gun(s) to someone away from the stage, and carelessly sweeps folks around him. The Match Director is called to alert him of the safety problem. The shooter repeats the carelessness with another attendee and is again told to be careful of muzzle direction. On the third incident the Match Director tells him that he is disqualified from the match, can stay if he wants to help, but his guns must be put away. The shooter is angered, doesn't want to help, and is "thinking" about leaving.

 

Hypothetical situation, but plausible. What would your concerns be in this case? Have you had this - or a similar situation happen? How was it resolved?

 

RR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Having some experience with difficult, belligerent, and at times very dangerous people, how you present the penalty to the individual makes all the difference in the world.  For example, I present the issue first and why such behavior cannot be tolerated.  I then present the effect and consequences of the behavior then assess the penalty.  I also offer the tools for the individual to correct the identified behavior for future attendance to shoots at your range.  This way, it is possible to end a potentially bad situation on a positive note.

 

Now here is where it gets sticky.  Depending on the individual's attitude and demeanor, I would have to determine if he/she needs to be escorted off the range or if he can stay and watch or help..  Based on the Red Flag laws, you can get the Sheriff involved but it can take a long time for them to get there so you can't rely on them.  Mentioning the Red Flag laws can be a valuable tool to "convince" an individual to move along if you feel he/she needs to leave. 

 

My next thing would be to offer to help him/her load up so they can leave or help, etc. all the while keeping conversation light if possible.  If the help is declined, and depending on attitude, I would keep an eye on him/her until they leave the premises.  It pays to be aware. 

 

Most times, an upset individual, given to little time to let the event soak in, will see the error of his ways and try to move forward without any more conflict. 

 

Given all the above, there is a reason why public range's rangemasters are armed in many cases.  Even on our LEO range, there is a requirement for the rangemaster to be armed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, Flash said:

What are these "Red Flag laws" of which you speak?

Several states now have laws where firearms can be removed from a person based on a judge's order if that person is deemed a threat.  There are some restrictions but LEO'S have wide latitude based on their threat assessment of an individual.  These are called Red Flag laws.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Several states now have laws where firearms can be removed from a person based on a judge's order if that person is deemed a threat.  There are some restrictions but LEO'S have wide latitude based on their threat assessment of an individual.  These are called Red Flag laws.

I am very glad we do not have these laws in Louisiana. It sounds like something that could be abused by Ex-wives and people that don't like a person. Also sounds like there is no "due process" involved and could result in someone getting killed for no reason. Just my opinion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

Give an example and who does the asking?

Person comes to range to pick up holster from its maker. Tosses the bag on the ground. (Just background on his attitude.) He was not a shooter at the match.

 

He walks down the line to where I am shooting and proceeds to make loud derogatory comments. I leave my guns on the LT, walk over to him, tell him he is not welcome, and to leave the range. My Husband tells him to leave. He takes his time walking over to another club's TG and big wig ( :wub: ) in our area. He tells that TG if I or my husband speak to him again, he will kill my husband and beat me up. After he leaves a third club's TG tells big wig TG that he heard the "person" tell his wife, "watch me go mess with Allie Mo."

 

I found it frightening for a while despite his being banned from most of the clubs in my area. He still lived in the same town. He was previously banned from a club for harassing a Senior Lady and a new shooter at one of their matches. There were many instances where he was seen cheating and nothing was done. Then he moved to another state. When he threatened a person from that state, he was banned from several clubs in that state.

 

The bad part was that, after the bans at CA clubs, he was allowed to shoot an annual match in my area, where he threatened the person from another state. He was also allowed to shoot a big international SASS match held in our area.  His bad behavior had been going on for several years by that time.

 

So, to make a long story short, a belligerent attitude is reason to eject a shooter or non-shooter from a match. Any club officer at the match may and should make the call. In some cases, the TO could make the call. When threats are made, put a permanent stop to the actions of such an individual at a SASS match and notify other clubs in the area of the "person's" actions .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Flash said:

I am very glad we do not have these laws in Louisiana. It sounds like something that could be abused by Ex-wives and people that don't like a person. Also sounds like there is no "due process" involved and could result in someone getting killed for no reason. Just my opinion.

Unfortunately, these laws may be coming to your town, it's just a matter of when. 

 

Yes, it can be abused, that's why it takes a court order to ensure due process.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Person comes to range to pick up holster from its maker. Tosses the bag on the ground. (Just background on his attitude.) He was not a shooter at the match.

 

He walks down the line to where I am shooting and proceeds to make loud derogatory comments. I leave my guns on the LT, walk over to him, tell him he is not welcome, and to leave the range. My Husband tells him to leave. He takes his time walking over to another club's TG and big wig ( :wub: ) in our area. He tells that TG if I or my husband speak to him again, he will kill my husband and beat me up. After he leaves a third club's TG tells big wig TG that he heard the "person" tell his wife, "watch me go mess with Allie Mo."

 

I found it frightening for a while despite his being banned from most of the clubs in my area. He still lived in the same town. He was previously banned from a club for harassing a Senior Lady and a new shooter at one of their matches. There were many instances where he was seen cheating and nothing was done. Then he moved to another state. When he threatened a person from that state, he was banned from several clubs in that state.

 

The bad part was that, after the bans at CA clubs, he was allowed to shoot an annual match in my area, where he threatened the person from another state. He was also allowed to shoot a big international SASS match held in our area.  His bad behavior had been going on for several years by that time.

 

So, to make a long story short, a belligerent attitude is reason to eject a shooter or non-shooter from a match. Any club officer at the match may and should make the call. In some cases, the TO could make the call. When threats are made, put a permanent stop to the actions of such an individual at a SASS match and notify other clubs in the area of the "person's" actions .

PS I was the club's TG, Hubby was the VP, MD, and PM.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Person comes to range to pick up holster from its maker. Tosses the bag on the ground. (Just background on his attitude.) He was not a shooter at the match.

 

He walks down the line to where I am shooting and proceeds to make loud derogatory comments. I leave my guns on the LT, walk over to him, tell him he is not welcome, and to leave the range. My Husband tells him to leave. He takes his time walking over to another club's TG and big wig ( :wub: ) in our area. He tells that TG if I or my husband speak to him again, he will kill my husband and beat me up. After he leaves a third club's TG tells big wig TG that he heard the "person" tell his wife, "watch me go mess with Allie Mo."

 

I found it frightening for a while despite his being banned from most of the clubs in my area. He still lived in the same town. He was previously banned from a club for harassing a Senior Lady and a new shooter at one of their matches.

This is a situation where this individual is guilty of making terrorist threats and could have been arrested if you felt your safety was in jeopardy.  You could also have applied for a restraining order against him, again if you felt you were in danger.  You would end up going to court to make that restraining order permanent and he loses his guns until the order is lifted.  You can get his attention with the right tools.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hubby and I discussed that. Hubby that he was just blowing off steam and we shouldn't make him madder.

 

IMO, that attitude and allowing it to go unchecked is why we have so many thugs in the world today.

I suspect he is a simple bully that has gotten away with the behavior so long, he just continues to push the limit.  Sometimes you have to draw a line in the sand.  Better him mad than me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Allie Mo - that's scary! Glad it didn't escalate further!!!  Wow...

Best,

...RR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

As irritating as I can be at times I have never had anyone talk to me that way  face to face and I am not a youngster any longer Now behind my back may be another matter. ;) :FlagAm:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/2/2019 at 9:46 AM, Snakebite said:

I have always encouraged people to cut all the slack that they could when it comes to enforcing the rules. Try to find a reason to NOT punish the shooter, if possible ... but don't go so far as to disregard the rules.  So... I say address what you need to address. Knowing the rules and the intent of the rules will help everyone to make the best call that they can make.

Snakebite,

Excellent guiding statement, just what I was looking for, thanks!

Bushy

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

On 3/3/2019 at 3:29 PM, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

"Person comes to range to pick up holster from its maker. Tosses the bag on the ground. (Just background on his attitude.) He was not a shooter at the match.

He walks down the line to where I am shooting and proceeds to make loud derogatory comments. I leave my guns on the LT, walk over to him, tell him he is not welcome, and to leave the range.... "

 

Allie Mo, that is a terrible thing to have happen anywhere, let alone on a live fire range.  Being removed from a local club is one thing--but there should be some means of removing someone from SASS Membership (if he is a member).  Consistent, irrational behavior which is indicative of a much larger problem IMHO.  And yes, if not addressed promptly it will continue and inevitably escalate. 

 

Arrests, restraining orders, threats of such only work on rational people who respect the law.  Sometimes it helps, and sometimes it hurts but it will never stop a determined person.  If it is beyond general "talking trash" and he has in fact targeted you?  Short of moving away, avoidance and making yourself, husband, and home a harder target is the traditional way to go.  Police reports and records on your side with witnesses do provide a better backdrop if things get violent and end up in a criminal court.

 

Stay safe--

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.