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Changing Cocked Rifle Penalty


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1 hour ago, Marshal Stone, SASS #53366 said:

 

If that happened the pistol is defective and needs to go to a gunsmith for immediate repair.

 

Marshal Stone

That don't do much for the first time it happens...

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1 hour ago, Assassin said:

Watched a guy pull out his Colt 1911, 38 super, when he flipped the safety off the pistol discharged. He never touched the trigger. Just saying, it happens. There's a big difference between on the safety notch vs. full cocked. If there's a round under the hammer It's a whole different ballgame. Don't we have a rule for coming to the line with a round in the chamber with a closed action. The hammer back rule is like double jeopardy. 

That 1911 deal has nut'n to do with SASS.

Hammer as far forward as possible when leaving the LT, is as safe as can be for both rifle and handguns.

OLG

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Pretty good subject.  I too have had more than my share of making that call.   The current answer, if found, is a Stage DQ.  I am okay with that, but why does it continue?

 

I have never had to Match DQ a shooter because of breaking 170 with a loaded gun.  Just a few Stage DQ's with an unloaded shotgun and breaking the 170.

 

SO, why are there so many with the cocked rifle at the loading table?

 

Maybe we need to look at the reason(s) for it occurring .  Like - Who is it that does it?...Are they repeat offenders?....Are they new shooters lacking training?......Are they good shooters with a bad day? ...........Are they older shooters with a bad day?.....Are they new shooters with a bad day?......Are we as allowing new unprepared shooters in easily, just to get them into the game?..............Maybe too much chatting at the loading tables?......  Outside conditions impacting the attention of the shooters?

 

Can we set signs up at the loading tables such as a check list?

 

How can we better help all shooters to monitor themselves and their equipment,  and  be aware of themselves and those around them?

 

Practical gun safety training for many starts where?

 

Just a few more questions heaped on the pile.

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13 minutes ago, Oklahoma Dee said:

....Maybe too much chatting at the loading tables?

 

This can lead to all sorts of problems. 

 

In other words, NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

 

Among other things.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

> snip <

NOT PAYING ATTENTION.

> snip <

+1

IMHO … most/all of these types of safety related penalties … thankfully … are there for when you have demonstrated (for whatever reason) you simply aren't quite paying sufficient attention to what you are doing. >> AND … they provide you an opportunity to take a break. 

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How about keep the rule and change the penalty to something like 10 seconds as long as there's no discharge, just an idea. SDQ will make you pay attrition been there done it.

 

Renegade Ripley

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16 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Can we just leave it alone and move on to more important things...like...oh, nevermind.

 

Phantom

 

I totally agree with Phantom.

 

Ahem . . . . Doing my best Noz impersonation here . . .

 

LEAVE THE COCKED RIFLE PENALTY ALONE!

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10 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

And if it's on the safety notch... it's um, safe... right?

In Wild Bunch it is.

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Should be for CAS as well. Either you didn't drop it all the way down before loading (the chamber is empty) or you accidently pulled it back to the safety notch after loading (nothing was chambered, hence empty). If you had chambered a round, the lever would have had to be opened a considerable amount and the hammer would be back all the way. If it's found on the notch, have the shooter pull it back to full cock and pull the trigger (in a safe direction). Bang=MDQ, No bang=NC.

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10 minutes ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

> snip <

If you had chambered a round, the lever would have had to be opened a considerable amount and the hammer would be back all the way. 

> snip <

Unless there was already a round in the chamber before you started loading. How could you possibly tell if you didn't lever the gun and look??

... AND ... I have seen that before.

I was at a local match ... an annual ... several years back where they had "group shoots" as side entertainment between lunch/match stages. In this case everyone lined up at several tables (in teams) and shot at  4x4s hanging from ropes (w/ weights) until they broke (first team to cut their 4x4 in half won).

Some people walked away w/o getting cleared and I was right behind one woman when she walked to the rear of her truck ... closed the lever and pulled the trigger (to put the gun away so she could eat lunch).

Fortunately, the round didn't go through her rear window or do any damage (other than get everyone's attention) ... and just created some dust in the berm in front of the parking area. 

She had carried the gun (from the shooting position) w/ the lever open ... the barrel pointing straight up ... very safely ... directly to her vehicle.

Why make assumptions?? Having multi-layered safety protocol may seem stupid but might just be worth it when one of those "it couldn't possibly have happened" things happen.  

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And I'm all for safety, please don't think I'm not. Let me reiterate.

The rifle was correctly and safely unloaded and verified safe at the conclusion of the previous stage.

Lever kept open until taking it to the loading table for this stage.

Action worked, let's say a couple times to verify clear.

Rifle is down on the LT and shooter thumbs hammer, pulls trigger and lowers hammer, thinking they have lowered it all the way, but only dropping it onto the safety notch. Loads rifle and waits turn. Shooter is called and heads to firing position and R.O. finds the hammer not fully down.

NO round in the chamber and hammer on safety notch.

 

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2 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

Should be for CAS as well. Either you didn't drop it all the way down before loading (the chamber is empty) or you accidently pulled it back to the safety notch after loading (nothing was chambered, hence empty). If you had chambered a round, the lever would have had to be opened a considerable amount and the hammer would be back all the way. If it's found on the notch, have the shooter pull it back to full cock and pull the trigger (in a safe direction). Bang=MDQ, No bang=NC.

Why MDQ? It's a SDQ.

There are no MDQ for cocked hammers, geez, you wanna keep folks playing the game.!:D:D

In CAS my safety notches have been removed to make sure it's all the way down, and so have many other shooters, as it's not needed in CAS, but needed in WB, go figure.

I don't agree with that WB ruling, WB wanna be opposite to CAS under the guise of unnecessary penalties, and in some ways I agree, but IF there is no round in the chamber you are still declared guilty without getting proof?

The proposed change allows you to prove you have NOT got one in the chamber, that is all, if you do, you ARE guilty therefore you get the penalty still.

And that what the proposed change was at the TG meeting and agreed by the ROC, &  as Rainmaker has stated.... No bang NC.

When this topic came up last year and the ruling made it was declared no further correspondance would be looked, maybe we need to put this to bed until such time as we get to agree when and where a TG summit will be held, and let the rule stand as it is.

 

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8 hours ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Why MDQ? It's a SDQ.

There are no MDQ for cocked hammers, geez, you wanna keep folks playing the game.!:D:D

In CAS my safety notches have been removed to make sure it's all the way down, and so have many other shooters, as it's not needed in CAS, but needed in WB, go figure.

I don't agree with that WB ruling, WB wanna be opposite to CAS under the guise of unnecessary penalties, and in some ways I agree, but IF there is no round in the chamber you are still declared guilty without getting proof?

The proposed change allows you to prove you have NOT got one in the chamber, that is all, if you do, you ARE guilty therefore you get the penalty still.

And that what the proposed change was at the TG meeting and agreed by the ROC, &  as Rainmaker has stated.... No bang NC.

When this topic came up last year and the ruling made it was declared no further correspondance would be looked, maybe we need to put this to bed until such time as we get to agree when and where a TG summit will be held, and let the rule stand as it is.

 

I think this expresses why good active members get frustrated.  A reasonable proposal was made, discussed, voted upon and agreed to by the ROC.  Not everybody was happy, but the process was followed.  Then it disappeared into the Twilight Zone.  

 

We managed to get the dropped round rule changed.  That was another one that was frequently called in the past.  Since it's been changed, it's been a relief when running the timer to not have to call a penalty when a shooter puts his/her hand on a dropped cartridge or shell.  I have not seen anything close to a safety issue when people pick up a dropped shell.  

 

I think the change to the cocked long gun rule would be the same.   No impact on safety and less frustration in running the timer.  

 

NNV

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Consider this. With a 1 piece firing pin assembly IF there was a round in the chamber it is actually safer if the hammer is in the safety notch than fully down. If it is fully down the hammer has the firing pin in direct contact with the primer.

 

As to knowing if the rifle is actually empty; on the first stage, no guns have been cleared by the ULT officer.

 

I have personally witnessed a rifle that was cycled multiple times at the unloading table and considered empty. Two shooters were sharing a rifle so shooter two takes the rifle and goes to the loading table. Cycles the action and lowers the hammer by pulling the trigger. After shooter two finishes and is at the ULT, a round was discovered in the rifle when the action was cycled to show empty. That round had been stuck in the magazine and only decided to come out after the second shooter had completed the course of fire.

 

This is why all firearms are treated as load ALL THE TIME. and why there should be a clearly stated penalty for sweeping anyone at any time in the SHB.

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16 hours ago, Oklahoma Dee said:

Pretty good subject.  I too have had more than my share of making that call.   The current answer, if found, is a Stage DQ.  I am okay with that, but why does it continue?

 

I have never had to Match DQ a shooter because of breaking 170 with a loaded gun.  Just a few Stage DQ's with an unloaded shotgun and breaking the 170.

 

SO, why are there so many with the cocked rifle at the loading table?

 

Maybe we need to look at the reason(s) for it occurring .  Like - Who is it that does it?...Are they repeat offenders?....Are they new shooters lacking training?......Are they good shooters with a bad day? ...........Are they older shooters with a bad day?.....Are they new shooters with a bad day?......Are we as allowing new unprepared shooters in easily, just to get them into the game?..............Maybe too much chatting at the loading tables?......  Outside conditions impacting the attention of the shooters?

 

Can we set signs up at the loading tables such as a check list?

 

How can we better help all shooters to monitor themselves and their equipment,  and  be aware of themselves and those around them?

 

Practical gun safety training for many starts where?

 

Just a few more questions heaped on the pile.

I think the answer is routine. I always set the long guns down and then cycle the lever once then lower the hammer by hand. It is the first thing I do and I do it every time. It's the starting point of my routine. Once you do it enough it's subconscious. 

 

I would "guess" the people that it's not happening to have a routine......the people it is happening to don't have one or don't do the same one every time. 

 

I don't think it matters where it falls into the routine but since I do it right when I set the guns down it's less likely to happen if I get distracted. 

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We have the following issue from the TG meeting

 

Quote

1.     The first was to eliminate the automatic SDQ penalty for leaving the ULT and coming to the line of engagement with the hammer back on the rifle.  In such instances, the shooter would be directed to point the rifle safely into the back berm and pull the trigger.  If no bullet was fired, the shooter would be directed to finish staging firearms and to complete the stage (No Call).  If a round fired when the shooter pulled the trigger, the shooter would be assessed a SDQ and directed to proceed to the ULT.  This idea met with the approval of the TGs.

 

and amended by the ROC

 

Quote

1. Eliminate the automatic SDQ penalty for leaving the LT and coming to the line of engagement with the hammer back on the rifle. 

"In such instances, the shooter would be directed to point the rifle safely into the back berm, bring the hammer to FULL COCK if it's in the "safety notch, and pull the trigger.  If no bullet was fired, the shooter would be directed to finish staging firearms and to complete the stage (No Call).  If a round fired when the shooter pulled the trigger, the shooter would be assessed a SDQ and directed to proceed to the ULT." 

RECOMMENDATION: YES…CHANGE THE RULE AS SUGGESTED (amended re "safety notch")

 

All in all, it could be solved if you could find some non apathetic TGs to call for the vote.

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All in all, it could be solved if you could find some non apathetic TGs to call for the vote.

You might want to get your facts straight before you make such inflammatory remarks. TG's don't have the authority to "call for a vote". Voting is only allowed at a summit per the Wild Bunch. It has been suggested many times to allow electronic voting and always met with a resounding no.

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7 minutes ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said:

All in all, it could be solved if you could find some non apathetic TGs to call for the vote.

You might want to get your facts straight before you make such inflammatory remarks. TG's don't have the authority to "call for a vote". Voting is only allowed at a summit per the Wild Bunch. It has been suggested many times to allow electronic voting and always met with a resounding no.

 

from: 

On 2/26/2019 at 8:26 AM, Snakebite said:

The biggest thing that I took away from the meeting was that thereseems to be a lack of enthusiasm within the TG group as a whole. Misty commented on the email that she sent out inquiring about interest in a Summit. She said that many TG didn't even bother to open the email, and many others expressed a non interest.

 

According to this, the CEO of SASS sent a message to the TGs "inquiring about interest in a Summit".

 

if some non apathetic TGs called for a Summit to vote on this issue when the call was made, we would not be having this discussion.

 

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9 minutes ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said:

TG's can't "call for a summit". If you think your TG is not doing his/her job replace them or do it yourself. 

Ok, let me restate then...

 

On 2/26/2019 at 8:26 AM, Snakebite said:

The biggest thing that I took away from the meeting was that there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm within the TG group as a whole. Misty commented on the email that she sent out inquiring about interest in a Summit. She said that many TG didn't even bother to open the email, and many others expressed a non interest..

 

According to this, the CEO of SASS sent a message to the TGs "inquiring about interest in a Summit".

 

If some enthusiastic TGs showed some interest in SASS scheduling a TG Summit to vote on issues that were outstanding, including the cocked rifle rule, when the email was sent out asking for that kind of feedback, we would not be having this discussion.

 

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On 2/27/2019 at 8:22 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Is a spent casing on a carrier of a rifle that is restaged pointing down range a safety issue?

How does one get a spent case into the carrier, without loading a spent round in the magazine? 

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7 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

It's called-Failure to eject. Not uncommon at all.

OLG

I hate it when that happens!!!!!!!!

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6 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

I think the answer is routine. I always set the long guns down and then cycle the lever once then lower the hammer by hand. It is the first thing I do and I do it every time. It's the starting point of my routine. Once you do it enough it's subconscious. 

 

I would "guess" the people that it's not happening to have a routine......the people it is happening to don't have one or don't do the same one every time. 

 

I don't think it matters where it falls into the routine but since I do it right when I set the guns down it's less likely to happen if I get distracted. 

But where in the sequence do you check your cell phone?

 


:D:D;)

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7 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

It's called-Failure to eject. Not uncommon at all.

OLG

I really don't want to further hijack this more general-interest post,  but I am now confused.  So I will offer up my simplified understanding and hope somebody can briefly clarify what I'm failing to see. 

 

(I refer here to an 1873 Winchester or clone.  I'm less familiar with the Marlins, Henry's, and other allowed SASS rifles in wide usage.) 

 

So are you describing a "stove-piped" spent round, that has fallen  vertically back into the front widened clearance port on the slot  on top of the carrier, preventing delivery of the next live round and return of the gun to battery? (presuming of course that the failed-ejected case was not the final round) 

 

---or are you referring to a spent round, that fails to eject, and then somehow actually makes its way back inside the delivery tube on the carrier? 

 

I see the stove-piped condition fairly commonly, but I've not so far seen a spent case slip back into the carrier delivery tube. 

 

How does that occur, given that when a chambered live round is fired, the lever has been closed, the carrier is down, so the carrier has already taken in the next live round from the magazine (if there is a next round).  That upcoming live round then fully occupies the carrier delivery tube. 

 

Then when the lever is opened, the bolt first withdraws and hopefully extracts the spent case.  The carrier then immediately rises abruptly, ejecting the extracted empty case and simultaneously lifting the waiting live round into alignment with the chamber, ready for feeding.  So wouldn't a case that fails to eject be entrapped in the chamber, by the following live round.  

 

I have seen a round fail to eject and remain stuck in the chamber, then the following round in the carrier has no place to go, thus jambing the action and terminating the shooting string, pending remediation.   But never have I seen an empty case get back into the carrier delivery tube. 

What am I misunderstanding here? 

 

 

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

I really don't want to further hijack this more general-interest post,  but I am now confused.  So I will offer up my simplified understanding and hope somebody can briefly clarify what I'm failing to see. 

 

(I refer here to an 1873 Winchester or clone.  I'm less familiar with the Marlins, Henry's, and other allowed SASS rifles in wide usage.) 

 

So are you describing a "stove-piped" spent round, that has fallen  vertically back into the front widened clearance port on the slot  on top of the carrier, preventing delivery of the next live round and return of the gun to battery? (presuming of course that the failed-ejected case was not the final round) 

 

---or are you referring to a spent round, that fails to eject, and then somehow actually makes its way back inside the delivery tube on the carrier? 

 

I see the stove-piped condition fairly commonly, but I've not so far seen a spent case slip back into the carrier delivery tube. 

 

How does that occur, given that when a chambered live round is fired, the lever has been closed, the carrier is down, so the carrier has already taken in the next live round from the magazine (if there is a next round).  That upcoming live round then fully occupies the carrier delivery tube. 

 

Then when the lever is opened, the bolt first withdraws and hopefully extracts the spent case.  The carrier then immediately rises abruptly, ejecting the extracted empty case and simultaneously lifting the waiting live round into alignment with the chamber, ready for feeding.  So wouldn't a case that fails to eject be entrapped in the chamber, by the following live round.  

 

I have seen a round fail to eject and remain stuck in the chamber, then the following round in the carrier has no place to go, thus jambing the action and terminating the shooting string, pending remediation.   But never have I seen an empty case get back into the carrier delivery tube. 

What am I misunderstanding here? 

 

 

 

 

I think the misunderstanding came from you misquoting Phantom. He says ON the carrier. Your reply says IN the carrier.

 

Signed,

Your friendly neighborhood clearer upper.

Screenshot_20190301-205631_Chrome.jpg

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43 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I think the misunderstanding came from you misquoting Phantom. He says ON the carrier. Your reply says IN the carrier.

 

Signed,

Your friendly neighborhood clearer upper.

Screenshot_20190301-205631_Chrome.jpg

Point taken.  Thanks for clarifying.  

So what's the circumstance that causes a spent round to remain ON the carrier?   After firing, if the lever is properly opened (and carrier is at top), wouldn't the spent case just fall off?   

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9 minutes ago, Dusty Devil Dale said:

Point taken.  Thanks for clarifying.  

So what's the circumstance that causes a spent round to remain ON the carrier?   After firing, if the lever is properly opened (and carrier is at top), wouldn't the spent case just fall off?   

Not all the time. Ask me how I know!

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