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Null N. Void

Changing Cocked Rifle Penalty

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There was a proposal last year to change the penalty to a no call if the trigger is pulled on the rifle (pointed in a safe direction) and the hammer falls, and nothing happens. If it goes bang, it's still a SDQ.

 

My understanding was this was to be voted on at the TG meeting at winter range.  Did this get discussed and either approved voted down?

 

NNV

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There is no voting at TG Meetings, only discussion. It has to be voted on at a Convention( Summit) and none have been scheduled, although there was an email sent last year about the possibility of having one in Dec 2019.

Edited by Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L
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I personally don't like the new idea.  Nothing wrong with the old way.  Folks need to lower the hammer before they start loading.  If there is a chance that they have a loaded round in the chamber (if there is no chance then why the extra step of "shooting into the berm") then what is to prevent them from tripping on the way to the shooting line and firing that round.

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Leave well enough alone!!

Edited by Rye Miles #13621
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I've had to call the penalty many times and have never found a round in the chamber.  It's already too late to worry about tripping on the way.  The penalty is almost always called at the line when the rifle is put down.   I think lowering the hammer by pulling the trigger is a better way to handle it.  I prefer a no call, but could see a procedural or a MS.  I think the SDQ is too severe.

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14 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

I've had to call the penalty many times and have never found a round in the chamber.  It's already too late to worry about tripping on the way.  The penalty is almost always called at the line when the rifle is put down.   I think lowering the hammer by pulling the trigger is a better way to handle it.  I prefer a no call, but could see a procedural or a MS.  I think the SDQ is too severe.

I also think the SDQ is too severe, IF upon inspection it turns out there is no round in the chamber.  If a round is found in the chamber then I think the SDQ is appropriate. 

Edited by Captain Bill Burt
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10 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

I've had to call the penalty many times and have never found a round in the chamber.  It's already too late to worry about tripping on the way.  The penalty is almost always called at the line when the rifle is put down.   I think lowering the hammer by pulling the trigger is a better way to handle it.  I prefer a no call, but could see a procedural or a MS.  I think the SDQ is too severe.

If you have had to call this many times, several wrong things are happening,  One - no loading officer, Two - bad training, Three failure of folks to read the rules.   I've shot this game quite awhile and I could probably count the number of times I've seen it on one hand. 

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This should be addressed at the loading table! We either have a LT officer or we police each other. I don't know what's so hard about remembering to lower your hammer!:blink:

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3 minutes ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

If you have had to call this many times, several wrong things are happening,  One - no loading officer, Two - bad training, Three failure of folks to read the rules.   I've shot this game quite awhile and I could probably count the number of times I've seen it on one hand. 

What causes it and how often it happens isn't necessarily relevant to his point, which is whether or not the penalty is appropriate for the transgression.  To me there's a significant difference between coming to the line with a cocked gun with a live round in the chamber and coming to the line with a cocked gun and an empty chamber.   I haven't been doing this as long as you have, but I TO a lot and I don't have enough fingers on both hands to count the number of times I've had to make this call.

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Leave it alone. The gun can't fire with the hammer down, it can with it cocked. Just another layer of safety. Pretty sure some rifles can be loaded with the lever open. Shooter notices and closes it, loading the gun. At least if the hammer is dropped manually it isn't likely to shoot someone.

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3 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Leave it alone. The gun can't fire with the hammer down, it can with it cocked. Just another layer of safety. Pretty sure some rifles can be loaded with the lever open. Shooter notices and closes it, loading the gun. At least if the hammer is dropped manually it isn't likely to shoot someone.

Lightning rifles are loaded with the action open and when loading is finished the action is closed and the hammer is still cocked so it has to be lowered. I’ve been SDQ’d for coming to the line with it cocked. I learned my lesson. 

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I'm in the "Leave it as it is" camp..:huh:

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' Yep.. it's been called on me...

But only once.. I kinda learned something :D

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Another for keeping it as is. We all know and if we forget, there's a penalty. Although I think an SDQ is a bit heavy if there's no round in the chamber.

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Drop a rifle with a round under the hammer, with the hammer down, bang. Drop a rifle with a round under the hammer on half clock, nothing. The safest way to carry a rifle is the halfcock position, they were designed that way. We can't prevent every potential safety hazard. This is a silly rule. My rifle had a bad main spring and the hammer wasn't staying down, I got called for hammer back and took the penalty, next stage figured it out. This rule is a solution for nothing unless the hammer is at full cock or there's a round under the hammer. It's very frustrating to call a SDQ on a brand new shooter for this rule when they've been taught to keep the rifle on half clock for their entire life. Yeah, they need to know the rules, but this one isn't really necessary.

 

 

 

 

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I guess I'm in the camp of either way. I'll do whatever the rule says. I did have someone call it on me one time until I pushed my hammer forward to show it wasn't on the notch. Then, no call. I have had to call it on people at a big match and I've called it at a monthly. One thing I am in a habit of doing is checking my hammer and the person on either side of me at the loading table to make sure theirs is down too. I saved a pard a couple weekends ago from an sdq, so it paid off at least once. 

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Leave the rule the way it is. That way it is consistent that you can't change locations with the action closed and the hammer cocked. This is not hard.

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

What causes it and how often it happens isn't necessarily relevant to his point, which is whether or not the penalty is appropriate for the transgression.  To me there's a significant difference between coming to the line with a cocked gun with a live round in the chamber and coming to the line with a cocked gun and an empty chamber.   I haven't been doing this as long as you have, but I TO a lot and I don't have enough fingers on both hands to count the number of times I've had to make this call.

I believe its completely relevant to his point otherwise why state it in his original post.  

Edited by Joe LaFives #5481

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What folks are calling "cocked" is almost always on the safety notch, which was made to keep the gun from firing.  Now we have Winchesters being introduced that have rebound hammers and when the lever is closed, hammer down, the hammer automatically goes back into "safety".    So now, not only do we have to inspect the hammers, we have to be sure of what gun we're looking at. 

If hammer is cocked back in firing position, then maybe an SDQ is in order, but a hammer in the safety notch?  I'd like to see that penalty go away if there's nothing in the chamber.

 

**edit - the Miroku '92s have a rebounding hammer, the '73's have a hammer block, but the result of a hammer that appears to be in the safety notch is the same.

Edited by McCandless
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Well my vote for what it is worth (which is not much) is to change.  As pointed out some of the newer rifles automatically rebound.

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It's a safety concern. Folks need to pay attention to what they're doing at the loading table and to those around them. Personally I see a Fully Cocked hammer on a rifle, pistol or closed shotgun as a "HOT" weapon and the penalty should reflect it, regardless of weather or not a round is found in the chamber.

 

It's a call we all hate to make, but as the TO, we need to remind ourselves that we didn't load the shooters guns.

 

Tully

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1 hour ago, McCandless said:

 

If hammer is cocked back in firing position, then maybe an SDQ is in order, but a hammer in the safety notch?  I'd like to see that penalty go away if there's nothing in the chamber.

 


I'm warming up to this one ..........

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4 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

I've had to call the penalty many times and have never found a round in the chamber. 

 

I was the same until last month when a member came onto the line with hammer down but a round in the chamber:blush:

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Personal responsibility  is paramount..if the hammer is back then you wear the appropriate  penalty....next shooter.

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4 hours ago, Joe LaFives #5481 said:

If you have had to call this many times, several wrong things are happening,  One - no loading officer, Two - bad training, Three failure of folks to read the rules.   I've shot this game quite awhile and I could probably count the number of times I've seen it on one hand. 

I've received the SDQ once after 16 years shooting.

Believe me, I've read the rules.

There was a LTO.

 

Anyone, have any other ideas? I do, brain fart.

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You pick up your rifle and either the hammer snags on your clothing or the lever hangs up on the table "cloth" as you turn and head towards the line. The latter happened to me two months ago.  Didn't feel it, but there it was.

At Bordertown we have a Expeditor,  but we also have far too many SDQs because of the hammer. 

I'm in favor of changing the rule.  Don't penalize someone because the hammer is back. Penalize them because there is a safety issue with the hammer back and a round in the chamber. 

And I really don't like the "That's the way we've always done it" line.

 

BS

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5 hours ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Leave it alone. The gun can't fire with the hammer down, it can with it cocked. Just another layer of safety. Pretty sure some rifles can be loaded with the lever open. Shooter notices and closes it, loading the gun. At least if the hammer is dropped manually it isn't likely to shoot someone.

Lightning pump rifles are loaded with the action open, but they can't chamber a round when the action is initially closed. An 1860 Henry can be loaded with the lever open, of course, and Henry's Big Boy... and a Spencer.

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37 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said:

You pick up your rifle and either the hammer snags on your clothing or the lever hangs up on the table "cloth" as you turn and head towards the line. The latter happened to me two months ago.  Didn't feel it, but there it was.

At Bordertown we have a Expeditor,  but we also have far too many SDQs because of the hammer. 

I'm in favor of changing the rule.  Don't penalize someone because the hammer is back. Penalize them because there is a safety issue with the hammer back and a round in the chamber. 

And I really don't like the "That's the way we've always done it" line.

 

BS

Just wondering.... Would you be of the same mind set if someone pointed an empty and open rifle/shotgun at you. After all, there is no ammunition in it therefore it is safe to do..... No penalty?

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2 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Just wondering.... Would you be of the same mind set if someone pointed an empty and open rifle/shotgun at you. After all, there is no ammunition in it therefore it is safe to do..... No penalty?

Personally,  if I know it is empty I wouldn't have a problem with that.  (Not arguing the current penalty for that). There are many "Safety" penalties that have nothing to do with safety.  But it is "the way it has always been done".

Example: explain what is unsafe about having a spent hull in a shotgun.

 

BS

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Full cock is one thing, half cock is another. 

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I"m also in the 'leave it be' camp. If we start changing our safety rules...well, it's just not good to start doing this.  . What's next,sweeping with a firearm is ok because 'don't worry, it's empty'. ?

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1 hour ago, Throckmorton,23149 said:

I"m also in the 'leave it be' camp. If we start changing our safety rules...well, it's just not good to start doing this.  . What's next,sweeping with a firearm is ok because 'don't worry, it's empty'. ?

Is a spent casing on a carrier of a rifle that is restaged pointing down range a safety issue?

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973

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2 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I've received the SDQ once after 16 years shooting.

Believe me, I've read the rules.

There was a LTO.

 

Anyone, have any other ideas? I do, brain fart.

That would be TWO brain farts.  your's and the loading officer's. 

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A cocked hammer IS different than a hammer on the SAFETY notch. Ummm, that's why it's there. The rifle is safe, NC.

Hammer cocked... another story. And MUCH easier for the shooter and the LTO to see.

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