Things to look for/avoid Schofield

[Cibola Al]

I am considering the purchase of a Uberti top break 45 colt pistol. One gun shop I frequent has a decent selection of used pistols. If I were to see a used Schofield type gun, are there issues or problem areas I should look for? 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I'm married to a Schofield. They don't take well to any guff.........

Get'n parts would be a big concern.

Fire one, before you buy one........

OLG

[Dantankerous]

I know this is totally a personal and subjective thing, but the 5 inch "Wells Fargo" model balances much better in my hand than the standard 7 inch Schofield does.

 

Try each before you buy. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Uberti is the only company making a Schofield now, but Armi San Marcos (ASM) made them in the past and those should be avoided.  Lots of quality problems.

[Dantankerous]

If you want to spend more money you might be able to find Smith and Wesson Scofields in either 7" or 5". S&W made these in the early 2000s. They are actually chambered in 45 S&W and are very nice guns.

[Dantankerous]

5 minutes ago, Abilene, SASS # 27489 said:

Uberti is the only company making a Schofield now, but Armi San Marcos (ASM) made them in the past and those should be avoided.  Lots of quality problems.

 With regard to the ASM Schofield, I tried one once. Only once. The fit and finish was beautiful but the function was horrendous. I took it to a match and I'm glad I did not use it on any of the stages as it would not function properly for a single cylinder of ammo.

[Cibola Al]

30 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

If you want to spend more money you might be able to find Smith and Wesson Scofields in either 7" or 5". S&W made these in the early 2000s. They are actually chambered in 45 S&W and are very nice guns.

 

I would prefer one of the S&W guns. If a deal was to be had I would consider it for sure. I'm not committed to anything yet. I have Vaqueros in 38/357 for regular comp, but I am thinking I would like to branch into Classic Cowboy and wanted something with more style points. I have no illusion about being winning a match with them. Just want to be different  

[Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674]

48 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

 With regard to the ASM Schofield, I tried one once. Only once. The fit and finish was beautiful but the function was horrendous. I took it to a match and I'm glad I did not use it on any of the stages as it would not function properly for a single cylinder of ammo.

I actually have one, bought it when they first came out in 97. I agree on fit and finish and will add that they are the closest in size to the original. As for function, mine went back to Cimarron a few times, back when they would still work on them, and has been fairly reliable for a while now.

[Dantankerous]

1 minute ago, Cibola Al said:

 

I would prefer one of the S&W guns. If a deal was to be had I would consider it for sure. I'm not committed to anything yet. I have Vaqueros in 38/357 for regular comp, but I am thinking I would like to branch into Classic Cowboy and wanted something with more style points. I have no illusion about being winning a match with them. Just want to be different  

 

With respect to winning or not winning...

 

In Classic Cowboy you might not shoot as fast as others but with those style points you'll always have a winner of a time. Especially with Schofields. 

 

And if you ever see Boulder Canyon Bob shoot his 5 inch Schofields you'll be lucky to best him. He is darn good with those AND he shoots an '87 lever shotgun like a boss! Point being, simply using the Schofield ain't gonna necessarily prohibit you from being competitive.  

 

Enjoy!

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

26 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

 

With respect to winning or not winning...

 

In Classic Cowboy you might not shoot as fast as others but with those style points you'll always have a winner of a time. Especially with Schofields. 

 

And if you ever see Boulder Canyon Bob shoot his 5 inch Schofields you'll be lucky to best him. He is darn good with those AND he shoots an '87 lever shotgun like a boss! Point being, simply using the Schofield ain't gonna necessarily prohibit you from being competitive.  

 

Enjoy!

Ah Gosh! Thanks for the kind words. Hoping to get back at it soon as I'm still recovering from rotator cuff surgery back in early Oct. We did sign up for HOW and hope to be back to my old self by then.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

1 hour ago, Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674 said:

I actually have one, bought it when they first came out in 97. I agree on fit and finish and will add that they are the closest in size to the original. As for function, mine went back to Cimarron a few times, back when they would still work on them, and has been fairly reliable for a while now.

I’ve never seen one, but that’s what I’ve read from Venturino and others regarding the dimensions. I’d love to get my hands on one some day and test it out with black powder. 

 

The biggest flaw with the ubertis is that they can’t handle BP. I’d love to get a Smith one as well. It’s my understanding that the Smith and Wesson 2000 version has a frame mounted firing pin rather than on the hammer. 

[LostVaquero]

I found the 7" jobs great for the longer sight radius but muzzle heavy.  I did not like the grip shape as well as a New Model 3. 

You cannot slip hammer any of the top breaks.

The only other thing I found on the Schofield was one could catch the latch thumbing the hammer sometimes.  Nothing more embarrassing than having the gun flip open and dump all your rounds out.

 

On top breaks they can begin to shoot loose especially if an owner has kept slamming them closed.

[Sedalia Dave]

You might contact Driftwood Johnson. He is pretty knowledgeable on the Top Breaks.

 

 

[TN Mongo, SASS #61450]

I acquired one in a trade.  It was a beautiful gun, but it felt very awkward in my hand when I shot it in a match.

[Dantankerous]

6 minutes ago, TN Mongo, SASS #61450 said:

...but it felt very awkward in my hand when I shot it in a match.

 

Funny you mention that. 

 

I took one (not the aforementioned ASM) to an indoor range for some new toy time and I'll bet it took 200 rounds for me to get comfortable shooting it. 

 

If'n someone is used to a plow handle or Bisley revolver they might not want to try a match with a Schofield without having shot it once or twice. Just a little bit of a learning curve involved there. At least that's my thought. 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

As has been said that the Uberti Schofields don't work well with black powder, and that Driftwood Johnson is our resident expert on all things S&W style top break.   I will affirm these assessments.

 

Since I own an Uberti Schofield, I will also say that they are a LOT of fun to shoot.  And with practice, it is possible to run respectably fast with.  I assert this because while I have never done it, I have seen it done.

 

The grip is very different from a Colt style gun, but it's not hard to get used to.  Neither the Uberties nor the 2000 S&W's are exact replicas of the originals, and perhaps ironically, the Uberti ones are closer than ones actually made by S&W.   

 

Another suggestion I would make is that, in addition to the Schofield, check out the S&W New Model 3.   There is at least one reproduction on the market.  The grips are different from the Schofield, and I find that they fit my hands better.   Of course, if you do go with originals you need to go with black powder.

 

Reproductions of the Russian model are also out there, but I don't have one of those.

 

Also of note is that Cimarron is soon releasing a reproduction of the even earlier S&W American revolver.   So, if you really want a top break, you do have a lot of options to choose from.   Good luck!

 

[Cibola Al]

Thanks all. I'm not too concerned about how the gun feels in the hand as long as I can manipulate the hammer one handed. I carried 4 different sidearms across the course of my career. They all felt different but I found with adequate range time I could shoot reasonably well with all of them.

 

I will check any used pistolas to make sure they aren't loosey goosey. Is timing ever an issue? Is it checked the same was as other single action revolvers?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

4 minutes ago, Cibola Al said:

Thanks all. I'm not too concerned about how the gun feels in the hand as long as I can manipulate the hammer one handed. I carried 4 different sidearms across the course of my career. I found with adequate range time I could shoot reasonably well with all of them.

You never carried a Schofield--Whole different 'animal'........

OLG

[Snake-eye, SASS#45097]

I have a pair of Uberti's in 38 spl and they work well with no problems at all. A classic cowboy that shoots with us used a pair in 44 Russian for years( very fast shooter). He had to have a hand spring replaced once. Reliability is viewed differently by each of us.

[Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674]

15 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

I’ve never seen one, but that’s what I’ve read from Venturino and others regarding the dimensions. I’d love to get my hands on one some day and test it out with black powder. 

 

The biggest flaw with the ubertis is that they can’t handle BP. I’d love to get a Smith one as well. It’s my understanding that the Smith and Wesson 2000 version has a frame mounted firing pin rather than on the hammer. 

It ran pretty good using the original Cleanshot BP substitute, not very good with real BP. With real BP, if you coat the tops of the bullets with wonder lube (just like a Cap & Ball pistol) it will make it through the stage, if not it will gum up after three or so shots.

 

As to the Smiths you are correct, they have frame, not hammer, mounted firing pins.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

One thing I forgot to mention about the schofield grip is that I find it more effective to “choke” up higher than on a colt. At least when shooting one handed or gunfighter. I have not shot one two handed before. I bring my up to where my thumb can lay right in that grove where the grip meets the frame. When cocking, instead of your thumb being parallel to the hammer, it’s more perpendicular. It takes some practice to get used to, but if done this way a schofield can run almost as fast as a colt. 

[The Aggie Rifleman, SASS#55213]

I've shot schofields for years and recently just got a 2nd one (3" model).  The Ubertis are good guns.  Never tried them with BP or substitute, just smokeless.  Mine are 45LC and have worked very well.

 

The Schofield when fired feels more like a modern semiautomatic pistol than a revolver.  I believe this is due to the lower bore axis.  Firing and recoil feels more straight in line with your hand with less rocking motion, especially when compared to a SAA.

 

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Have a good friend from "out of state" that is/was some kind of fast with Schofields.  Shot a pair of 3 1/2 in (i think) in Classic.  Won a whole bunch of matches up and down the eastern states and elsewhere with Schofields.  Finally quit the Schofields and switched to Colt pattern guns.  The Schofields let him down once too often. 

 

PS:  I elected to treat myself to a De Luxe Nickel, engraved 7 1/2 inch Schofield several years ago.  I could not get use to the Grip.  Plus, I shoot BP and Subs and the current crop of Schofields don't play well with BP.  Couple of guys have gotten them to shoot BP, but not many.  I still think I might like a pair of 3 1/2 inch guns, set up for moon clips just for FUN.  Or not.

[German Jim]

I understand that they don't play well with Black Powder or Subs.

[Nawlins Kid SASS #36107]

Years ago I purchased a used Navy Arms/Uberti. At the time I used it in matches shooting DD. They do have a learning curve but they are fun to shoot. In one local match I shot the Navy Arms and my original SW model three. It was fun and the other shooters thought it was a hoot to watch me shoot the pair, talk about style points!!!!

[Rye Miles #13621]

Now that I'm back to smokeless I would love a pair in .38's but they're so doggone expensive!! That stops me every time!!

 

[Coyote Kid, SASS#54714]

I have a pair of Beretta Laramies, 5", Wells Fargos with the round butt grips. They shoot great and have all the style points a cowboy can handle.

They're also a conversation piece at matches. Haven't had a problem with them.

[Jasper Agate]

On 2/27/2019 at 3:05 PM, Redwood Kid said:

I’ve never seen one, but that’s what I’ve read from Venturino and others regarding the dimensions. I’d love to get my hands on one some day and test it out with black powder. 

 

The biggest flaw with the ubertis is that they can’t handle BP. I’d love to get a Smith one as well. It’s my understanding that the Smith and Wesson 2000 version has a frame mounted firing pin rather than on the hammer. 

I have an ASM that was tuned by a local guru and it runs great, BUT  it don't like BP!!!! You might be able to get one cylinder full before it ties up. 

                         JA

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

On 2/27/2019 at 1:26 PM, Cibola Al said:

I am considering the purchase of a Uberti top break 45 colt pistol. One gun shop I frequent has a decent selection of used pistols. If I were to see a used Schofield type gun, are there issues or problem areas I should look for? 

 

Howdy

 

First of all, you should be aware that there were five separate Top Break models that S&W built on the large #3 frame, and they are not all the same, in fact some are quite different.

 

Of the five, two are still in production with Uberti, the Russian model and the Schofield model.

 

The Russian model was the first of the two, being produced from 1871 until 1878.

 

This is an actual 2nd Model Russian, made in 1875. Note the spur on the trigger guard, but more important, note the large, pointed hump at the rear of the grip.

 

 

 

I do not recommend the Russian model for CAS unless you plan to shoot it two handed.  The Russians specified the grip shape to keep this model from rotating in the hand during recoil. It does this very well. But it makes reaching the hammer with the thumb of the shooting hand difficult. I have fairly large hands, but in order to cock the hammer one handed I have to shift my grip up so my palm is in contact with the pointy part of the grip. Then I have to shift my grip down again to get my hand below the pointy part. If I don't and fire the revolver with the pointy part contacting my palm, it hurts. Even with a relatively mild recoiling cartridges such as the 44 Russian.  I can only imagine how much more it would hurt with a stout 45 Colt load.

 

Uberti is still making a replica of the Russian Model, theirs is a replica of the 3rd Model Russian, with a large knurled screw on top of the top strap to make it easier to remove the cylinder for cleaning. The Uberti version is chambered for 45 Colt, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38 Special. I can only imagine how heavy the 38 Special version would be, with a small bore and chambers in a big gun.

 

 

 

The Schofield model does not have the sharp pointed hump on the grip, the grip is a pleasing round shape. This 1st Model left the factory in July of 1875. The Schofield is the only one of the large #3 Top Breaks that had the latch to rotate the barrel down mounted on the frame. All the others have the latch mounted in the top strap. The latch is the serpentine shaped piece at the top of the frame.

 

 

 

 

 

I find it a bit difficult to reach the hammer on the Schofield model too, but not as bad as with the Russian.  I usually allow the gun to rotate a little bit in recoil, which brings the hammer closer to my thumb for easy cocking. Then I regrip to get my hand back down for the shot.

 

Uberti is currently chambering their Schofield model for the same cartridges as their Russian model, 45 Colt, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38 Special. I suspect the 38 Special version would be a very heavy gun too.

 

Incidentally, the Schofield model only shipped with a 7" barrel. Shorter barrels were cut off after market, most notably those that Wells Fargo bought surplus from the Army.

 

As stated, none of the replicas handles Black Powder very well. This is because Uberti lengthened the cylinders to accomodate the longer cartridges such as 45 Colt and 44-40, but did not correspondingly lengthen the frame. Instead, the bushing at the front of the cylinder was shortened to fit into the not-lengthened frame. The consequence is that BP fouling tends to be blasted onto the cylinder arbor, binding up the revolver in short order. The originals were designed for Black Powder and digested it just fine.

 

 

 

 

The 3rd type of S&W #3 Top Break replica by Uberti is known as the Laramie. It is a replica of the New Model Number Three. This NM#3 shipped in 1896. It is chambered for the most common chambering of the model, 44 Russian. Note the grip shape with the slight hump, and the barrel latch has been moved back to the top strap.

 

 

 

 

Personally I think the New Model Number Three was the best of all the large frame S&W Top Breaks. Accuracy records were set with it in the late 1800s that still stand today. The grip shape is very forgiving, I allow it to rotate in my hand a little bit in recoil so I can reach the hammer with my thumb.

 

The Laramie version that Uberti/Beretta made is not longer in production. It had an adjustable rear sight, so it would have to be shot in one of the categories that allows adjustable rear sights. I have read the rear sight can be changed out for a Russian rear sight, but I have no experience with that.

 

 

 

Cimarron has indeed announced it will be importing a replica of the American model, but none have hit our shores yet. The American model was the first of the S&W Top Breaks, manufactured from 1870 until 1874. This one is not mine, I borrowed the photo from an auction site. Notice how straight up and down the grip shape is. I suspect the new ones being made by Uberti will also have the shortened cylinder bushing and will not shoot Black Pwder well.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This photo is a comparison of the silhouette of a Colt and a Schofield. Notice how much farther it is to reach the hammer spur on the Schofield. All the #3 Top Breaks shared this feature, if you don't have large hands it can be difficult reaching the hammer spur on a S&W Top Break when shooting one handed.

 

 

 

 

 

P.S. When examining a used Top Break,  make sure the barrel locks up tight. They can loosen over time. It should snap shut positively and when the barrel is latched there should be zero wiggle at the barrel hinge. If the barrel can wiggle up and down slightly when latched, it may need the attention of a gunsmith familiar with this type of revolver.

 

Good luck finding one.

[Cibola Al]

Very comprehensive, thank you.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

To follow up on something Driftwood said...

 

Here is a vintage New Model the same rear sight as the Laramie

 

 

Smith and Wesson called these target sights.  As you can see, there as notched rear sight on the latch.   What you can't see is that you need a small screwdriver to loosen a pair of screws to adjust the sight.  This particular gun is chambered for .38-44, a strange cartridge that is basically a .38 SW that has had the case lengthened to be just as long as the cylinder.  The bullet was then recessed into the casing.  The theory was that there would be less "jump" from the end of the cartridge case to the barrel, allowing for greater accuracy.   In this configuration, this is the gun that Driftwood mentioned as to setting accuracy records that still stand, so there may have been something to the theory.  Another similar caliber that was configured this way was .32-44.   In both cartridges, the first number refers to the caliber and the second number refers to the fact that they were chambered for firearms normally used for .44 caliber guns.    While you can safely chamber and fire .38 SW rounds in any gun set up for .38-44, the .32 round was unique.  I do not know of any way to create brass to fit said guns, which is why I don't own one..

 

Compare this to another New Model 3 with the standard sights.

 

 

This one is a .44-40.  That little bump right above the latch screw is the rear sight.  In all honest, I don't find either one any easier or harder to see and line up for shooting.   Both guns handle well, and fit the hand quite nicely.   I won't show a pic of my reproduction Schofield, it really doesn't look all that different from Driftwood's real one.  But I will show a picture of my Scofield.

 

Now that I've got THAT out of the way, there was one other Model 3 revolver that Smith and Wesson put out back in the day.  Here's a pic of one, also in .44-40.

 

 

This is the Model 3 DA, which of course stands for Double Action.   While the DA trigger is really smooth and easy to master, it is also incredibly easy to cock this gun SA mode.  In fact, I think it's easier to do so that either the New Model 3 or the Schofield.   Go fig.   I have occasionally been allowed to use this gun a local matches, operating it as if it were a single action.   Having one makes for a nice addition to the collection, irregardless of its usability for our game.

 

I know the DA was also available in .44 Russian, but I don't know if it was in anything else besides those two calibers.

 

Hope this adds more information to your reference.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

HK

 

The most common chambering for the 44 Double action was 44 Russian. 53,590 of these were manufactured.

 

Another version known as the 44 Double Action Wesson Favorite was also chambered for 44 Russian. It had several design changes to reduce its overall weight, such as a groove in the frame over the trigger guard. It is estimated that only about 1000 were manufactured.

 

The 44 Double Action Frontier like yours was chambered for 44-40. 15,340 of these were manufactured.

 

The rarest of this model was the 38 Winchester Double Action, chambered for 38-40. Only 276 were manufactured.

 

Here are my 44 Double Actions, both chambered for 44 Russian. The one at the top is a target model with an adjustable rear sight. The one at the bottom has been refinished, as evidenced by the blued hammer and trigger. I have been allowed to shoot the bottom one in a couple of local matches, firing it single action of course.

 

[Newt Ritter]

Al, when you are looking at used models, just a quick tip to tell Uberti Schofields at a glance - look at the release lever, the sides on the S&W and Armi are flat, but the Uberti will have a small round "bump" on each side.  I swear by the Uberti models.  Armi had a lot of problems, S&W are expensive and only chamber .45 Schofields, like the original.  Uberti will take the Schofield round or the regular .45 long Colt.

 

The 3 1/2 inch models come on target faster than any other cowboy gun I've ever shot, but they look too modern for me.  For lookin' good, nothing beats the 7 inch model.  I regularly shoot my 5 inch models because they are the best compromise of the advantages of the other lengths.  Treat 'em nice and keep 'em clean.  Also, if you do shoot them, learn right away that you can NOT touch the trigger when you are trying to cock the hammer.  When you're thinking "what's wrong with this dang thing, it keeps hanging up and won't cock,"....your finger is probably just brushing the trigger.

 

And like the fellers said - try one before you buy.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

Newt has been shooting duelist and winning with his 5" Schofields for as long as I've known him (which has been since 2000).  Ask him some time what a double charge of Clays will do to one of them