Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432

Shooting a clean match means you are shooting slow - a myth?

Recommended Posts

I have been told more than once if you shot the match clean then you were not shooting fast enough.

 

At least at Winter Range 2019 that assertion is a myth.

 

There were 56 clean match shooters in what has to have been one of the most weather challenged matches ever.

 

Lets look at the results:

 

There were 39 that PLACED in their category, i.e. in the top ten.

 

There were 15 that PLACED in 1st or 2nd in their category.

 

There were 5 that PLACED in the top ten in the overall match.

 

Here are the results.

 

WR 2019 Clean match.

 

 

 

 

 

I shot it clean too but was 12th place in FCD.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd like to Buy two clean matchs,,,How Much???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Texas Red said:

I'd like to Buy two clean matchs,,,How Much???

 

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, what's the price? I'm thinking this post should be on the wire.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know... I shoot a dirty match pretty damn slow too. :mellow:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're shooting clean at monthlies, you're shooting too slow.

 

The concept is that it's easier to notch it down a bit at big matches vs. speeding up.

 

But if your goal is to shoot "Clean"...then go for it!

 

Phantom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

If you're shooting clean at monthlies, you're shooting too slow.

 

The concept is that it's easier to notch it down a bit at big matches vs. speeding up.

 

But if your goal is to shoot "Clean"...then go for it!

 

Phantom

 

^^^^ What Phantom said. ^^^^

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You cant miss everything fast enough to win and we can all (alright most of us) take an hour and hit everything.

 

As with everything there is a happy medium somewhere, one day I hope to find it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is how I look at it.... and many will likely disagree.

 

  • I don't know my speed limit unless I reach it and exceed it.  It's obvious when I exceed it.
  • In the game, you have to learn speed and accuracy, might as well learn them both at the same time.

I'm no champion at any level, but I am happy where I am with only 4 years in the game.

 

I agree with Phantom about monthly matches.  I go all out at the monthly (most of the time) and then dial back a bit at the larger matches.

 

I have a handful of Clean Match pens, but that wasn't my objective at the start of those matches.   :) 

 

Totes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One of the best shooters I have ever seen, and that I have the privilege of shooting with locally (Sidekick) explained to me a time where he pushed it to the ragged edge of his abilities usually having 6-10 misses per match. After about 6 months of shooting at this faster speed and the misses started going away. After a year his speeds were phenomenally quicker and he rarely misses. He explained it to me as conditioning his mind and body to operate at the faster speed. Unfortunately the first step is a doozy so I think people rarely take this step including me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Knowing the limits is what you learn in practice, which for many shooters is the monthly matches they attend.  But some shooters rarely shoot big matches, and for them the monthlies are where they get a chance to see what they are capable of accomplishing.  If you shoot clean for the goal of shooting clean, I applaud you.  If you push to find your limit (and ultimately expand it) and have the occasional train wreck, well, most of us have been there and will feel your pain at least a little bit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, Barkeep Casey said:

One of the best shooters I have ever seen, and that I have the privilege of shooting with locally (Sidekick) explained to me a time where he pushed it to the ragged edge of his abilities usually having 6-10 misses per match. After about 6 months of shooting at this faster speed and the misses started going away. After a year his speeds were phenomenally quicker and he rarely misses. He explained it to me as conditioning his mind and body to operate at the faster speed. Unfortunately the first step is a doozy so I think people rarely take this step including me.

 

This is what I am hoping for.  :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lead Dispencer told me when I started that so long as your misses don't add up to more than your raw time, you're doing fine.

 

The misses go away over time.

 

Phantom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Quite a few times I've heard:

Shoot monthly's at 110%. You have to shoot fast to get fast.

Shoot important matches at 95%. A miss at a big match can be very costly. My son missed WR 49er category win by 1 sec. with a miss & a "P".

 

Wasn't it Evil Roy who said "You can't shoot faster than clean?"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The math is simple.

We shoot 60 rounds of pistol, 60 rounds of rifle and 24 rounds of shotgun in an average monthly.

144 rounds.

 

If you were able to shoot every one of those rounds 1 tenth of a second faster than you do currently; your match time would improve 14.4 seconds.

 

If you can up your speed per shot by that tenth of a second with TWO or less misses; you are still better off than shooting clean at your current pace.

 

Three misses or more and you are losing time.

 

Everyone has to find that balance between time gained on each shot and time lost on each miss.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

For myself I just go with the mentality of shooting clean &   fast [ well my fast :D ]..no difference whether monthly or major shoot..as long as the front sight becomes like a dinner plate then usually everything takes care of itself !!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Yusta B. said:

Quite a few times I've heard:

Shoot monthly's at 110%. You have to shoot fast to get fast.

Shoot important matches at 95%. A miss at a big match can be very costly. My son missed WR 49er category win by 1 sec. with a miss & a "P".

 

Wasn't it Evil Roy who said "You can't shoot faster than clean?"

Yeah... And I believe he said maybe he was wrong when Bud had a miss on a stage and still beat him and his grand daughter.

 

:o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Yeah... And I believe he said maybe he was wrong when Bud had a miss on a stage and still beat him and his grand daughter.

 

:o

There are most always exceptions to any statement. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes....you can miss fast enough to win.

Bugler

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, Bugler said:

Yes....you can miss fast enough to win.

Bugler

Not so much when we scored with rank points......but now you can. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When the buzzer goes off I seem to get stuck at about 95%, regardless of the match.  Sometimes towards the end of a string I'll speed up to what feels like 100%, but rarely can I consciously decide to run at a slower pace.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

When the buzzer goes off I seem to get stuck at about 95%, regardless of the match.  Sometimes towards the end of a string I'll speed up to what feels like 100%, but rarely can I consciously decide to run at a slower pace.  

It's not really running at a slower pace so much as doing such things like verifying a good sight picture... Same concept as engaging a smaller than normal target. 

 

A change in mindset and your subconscious mind will take over.

 

Phantom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I shot Winter Range clean twice (2015/2016) and I personally believe I had a golden horseshoe up my butt. I'm no speed demon, but I put a lot of effort into shooting those 2 matches. I must admit though in 2015 after completing the 10th stage someone mentioned that I was the only one on the posse to shoot a clean match so far, I didn't push real hard on the last 2 stages. In 2016, by the 3rd day I was sicker than a dog and just shot as fast as I could trying to avoid a DQ, I didn't know I had shot clean until I was in the tent when they announced it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

clean is good, for big matches,, so is a minimal amount of misses,,,

 

at your local matches, every now and then, declared it a raw time match (for yourself)  don't worry about misses,,,,and run your guns as quickly as you can,  do that often or several times in a row,,, your misses will diminish,  then pull it back a tick and you'll be surprised how much you'll improve your times

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally..... I think its a myth.

 

Now, if a shooter want to just 'spray and pray',  I'm sure some of them will achieve a faster than normal stage time.

But I've witnessed some of our fastest shooters run an array of pistol targets in super speed times.

 

A few years back, when the Oak Ridge Outlaws were sponsoring an Annual match, I was the TO for Deuce

on the side match speed pistol.   There were 4 targets with something like a 2-3-3-2 sequence.

At that particular time, I knew what the Cowboy Record Speed Record was, which was held by Deuce.

Anyhow, Deuce steps up and best his time by something like .07 seconds.   

In essence, he bettered his record speed 'dump'  and he did it on 4 targets with a required sequence.

 

We've been told a lot of things from folks over the years that mean nothing now.  

Some of the stuff we've been told may have applied to some a few years back, but

time has proven some of them to be wrong.

 

Admittedly,  we have a few Borgs that shoot among us and they set their own goals outside

the bounderies of what was once perceived impossible, such as:

1. draw and firing both revolvers (10 shots) in under 2 seconds..... with 10 hits.

2. shooting a lever action rifle for 10 shots in under 2 seconds..... with 10 hits.

3. loading and firing 6 shots with a 97 in under 4 seconds..... hitting all 6 KD's.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Personally..... I think its a myth.

 

Now, if a shooter want to just 'spray and pray',  I'm sure some of them will achieve a faster than normal stage time.

But I've witnessed some of our fastest shooters run an array of pistol targets in super speed times.

 

A few years back, when the Oak Ridge Outlaws were sponsoring an Annual match, I was the TO for Deuce

on the side match speed pistol.   There were 4 targets with something like a 2-3-3-2 sequence.

At that particular time, I knew what the Cowboy Record Speed Record was, which was held by Deuce.

Anyhow, Deuce steps up and best his time by something like .07 seconds.   

In essence, he bettered his record speed 'dump'  and he did it on 4 targets with a required sequence.

 

We've been told a lot of things from folks over the years that mean nothing now.  

Some of the stuff we've been told may have applied to some a few years back, but

time has proven some of them to be wrong.

 

Admittedly,  we have a few Borgs that shoot among us and they set their own goals outside

the bounderies of what was once perceived impossible, such as:

1. draw and firing both revolvers (10 shots) in under 2 seconds..... with 10 hits.

2. shooting a lever action rifle for 10 shots in under 2 seconds..... with 10 hits.

3. loading and firing 6 shots with a 97 in under 4 seconds..... hitting all 6 KD's.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

 

 

But Widderborg, they don't run those speeds in big matches... Though I wish they'd try:o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But Widderborg, they don't run those speeds in big matches... Though I wish they'd try:o

 

I agree.

 

I just wanted to post that info to show examples of some 'Myths' that I had been told early in

my Cowboy shooting days, which was about 10-14 years back.

 

On a side note, I remember the first time someone ask me if I had seen the video of Deuce running

his pistols in something like 2.8+ seconds.   I thought....."You gotta be kidding me.   I wish I could run

under 3.0 with mine as a GF".

 

Time and perseverance can create amazing results.

 

You got one of them 'Borg' reputations yeowndangself..... ;)

(Hopefully, I'll get down to Slick's November Hell Fire match this year.  If so, hope to see you there.

The first Pepsi is on me).

 

..........Widder 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I agree.

 

I just wanted to post that info to show examples of some 'Myths' that I had been told early in

my Cowboy shooting days, which was about 10-14 years back.

 

On a side note, I remember the first time someone ask me if I had seen the video of Deuce running

his pistols in something like 2.8+ seconds.   I thought....."You gotta be kidding me.   I wish I could run

under 3.0 with mine as a GF".

 

Time and perseverance can create amazing results.

 

You got one of them 'Borg' reputations yeowndangself..... ;)

(Hopefully, I'll get down to Slick's November Hell Fire match this year.  If so, hope to see you there.

The first Pepsi is on me).

 

..........Widder 

I hope I can make it. Moved the shop to Colorado... Bouncing between Texas and Colorado till the house is done... So basically my wife and I are gypsies!

 

:blink:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I hope I can make it. Moved the shop to Colorado... Bouncing between Texas and Colorado till the house is done... So basically my wife and I are gypsies!

 

:blink:

 

I hope you like Colorado.   Its one of the places I would consider moving to if I ever leave TN.

 

Hey, if ya ever want any Henry .22 work (for your personal self), give me a shout.

I have 'special' pricing for fellow Borgs..... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we are on the cusp of seeing sub 10 second 10-10-4 stages.   Not by me, but they are coming.  Or are they already here?  I have not seen one yet.

 

Totes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Totes,

I 'think' its on the Record that atleast one of our top shooters has run a sub 10 stage.

Hopefully, someone more knowledgable of the situation will chime in

and correct me if I don't have my story correct.

 

..........Widder

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah they have.

 

But hopefully the pendulum is swinging a bit back towards more moderate size and distance and placement that doesn't put all the targets at the same height and distance... You know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I started this game approximately 40 years too late to ever have a hope of matching the young eyes and young reflexes of the 10 second shooters. My fastest efforts bring victory in my eyes only if I shoot as clean as possible.

A way to bring accuracy back into the game is to give a 1 second bonus for each clean stage.  Slow down a little and hit each target. 10 seconds at the end of a match is a whole lot.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Noz said:

I started this game approximately 40 years too late to ever have a hope of matching the young eyes and young reflexes of the 10 second shooters. My fastest efforts bring victory in my eyes only if I shoot as clean as possible.

A way to bring accuracy back into the game is to give a 1 second bonus for each clean stage.  Slow down a little and hit each target. 10 seconds at the end of a match is a whole lot.

Things like this just end up spreading the gap between the good shooters and the average shooters...so...no.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.