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Barry Sloe

Results of the WR TG Meeting

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Vote via the SASS website? New section dedicated???

 

Log into the section and valid SASS number is logged as voted????

 

Something like this?

Sounds good, you have my permission. Go ahead and move forward with the new forum. 

Clear out some of those old messages and you might receive some new ones.

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1 hour ago, Major B. S. Walker said:

 

The TG's wanted something like that on the TG Wire and haven't gotten it yet.

Just throwing out ideas...

 

I'm leaning to the idea of elimination of the TG system and implementing a direct vote by membership.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Snakebite said:

She said that many TG didn't even bother to open the email,

 

Curious how she arrived at this metric. Many email services do not send delivery or read receipts even if the sender requests them. 

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1 hour ago, Assassin said:

Sounds good, you have my permission. Go ahead and move forward with the new forum. 

Clear out some of those old messages and you might receive some new ones.

:lol:

 

Just shooting the s#*! With the hope that someone smart can capitalize on it and make our game/sport even better.

 

I'd sit in meetings during another life and we'd brainstorm. The crap ideas and thoughts that would come out of the staff's head was fascinating... But the number of fantastic products that had their beginnings from those meetings were quite numerous.

 

Phantom

 

PS: you can always reach me at hello@storiedfirearms.com. :P

 

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1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Curious how she arrived at this metric. Many email services do not send delivery or read receipts even if the sender requests them. 

Maybe they communicated directly to her... It happens sometimes.

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Just throwing out ideas...

 

I'm leaning to the idea of elimination of the TG system and implementing a direct vote by membership.

 

 

I would also be for letting all members vote. TG's may still be needed in order to explain potential rule changes and convey the reasoning behind changes at the club level. There are many shooters that have a hard time with reading comprehension when it comes to explaining certain aspects of rule changes. Remember the "cone of safety" that was a very simple concept, yet it was too complex for many to understand.

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I think one of the reasons that things have become a bit apathetic is that for the most part, we don't need new rules.  I've seen the Handbook grow enormously in the past 24 years, I've been a member,  At some point more rules just aren't needed.   What has changed via the ROC is the interpretation of existing rules which is a different animal.  

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2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Curious how she arrived at this metric. Many email services do not send delivery or read receipts even if the sender requests them. 

 

My bet is that she requested a read receipt and got a lot back that said the message was deleted without being read.  I'm sure she knows many don't send receipts. 

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10 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

So, what do you do with the TG's representing all the other countries then? :huh:

OLG

Forgot about them, count those in there too then!

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

  The OWNERS are in charge . Spring will be here soon and the season begins. Enjoy, I also would not want to see the game suffer a death by a thousand cuts. :FlagAm:

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Members have a voice in this game, it is supposed to be your TG. If your TG is not doing his or her job then they need to be REPLACED. It's pretty simple. The cut off at the knees mentality generally stems from when a particular voting item did get the desired results. If you TG is inactive or refuses to do the job there really is no way for SASS to know this there than lack of participation. I've said it before. The only way to change anything is to actually be wiling to do the work yourself. Frankly I've seen lots of talk over the years and very little walk. Especially on this wire. 

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1 hour ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Members have a voice in this game, it is supposed to be your TG. If your TG is not doing his or her job then they need to be REPLACED. It's pretty simple. The cut off at the knees mentality generally stems from when a particular voting item did get the desired results. If you TG is inactive or refuses to do the job there really is no way for SASS to know this there than lack of participation. I've said it before. The only way to change anything is to actually be wiling to do the work yourself. Frankly I've seen lots of talk over the years and very little walk. Especially on this wire. 

Duece, I don't think there is anything wrong with looking at new ways to make the game better... And I know you feel the same way.

 

Whether that means keeping, eliminating or modifying the current system is unknown. But if things aren't working well, then discussions need to be had.

 

As far as the Wire goes, I agree that there's a bunch of talkers here. But there are also a fair amount of folks that put in the walking time.

 

Phantom

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Members have a voice in this game, it is supposed to be your TG. If your TG is not doing his or her job then they need to be REPLACED. It's pretty simple. The cut off at the knees mentality generally stems from when a particular voting item did get the desired results. If you TG is inactive or refuses to do the job there really is no way for SASS to know this there than lack of participation. I've said it before. The only way to change anything is to actually be wiling to do the work yourself. Frankly I've seen lots of talk over the years and very little walk. Especially on this wire. 

 

I agree that any TG not doing the job ought to be replaced. (if you can find ANYONE that will take the job) It has been many years since any item has been voted on,  so I doubt that sour grapes over some failed voting issue has much to do with the current attitude trend. As for a TG being inactive… There is pitifully little for a TG to do other than to make sure that the latest announced Clarifications are disseminated to the membership that they represent. Attending the occasional TG meeting at a Sanctioned match and discussing “Stuff” is of course something that they can do … but without some means to vote, any blossoms that might appear at these meetings will never turn to fruit. At this point, Talk is about the only thing available to the TGs. There is no other avenue for them. There are some long time TGs that have given up and resigned their positions out of frustration. I do understand that… year after year of idleness wears on a person. No doubt in my mind that there are some folks that are pleased to see the “Old Folks” leave… I think that there are some that believe the Oldsters are holding the Game back… well without them the game is over.  Keeping in touch with the Roots of the Game is very important. So, without prejudice, I am sure that the TGs would be interested in some meaningful advice/suggestions that might motivate them. Motivation come from the Top… failure in the lower ranks is ALWAYS a failure from the top.  

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I will say to the TG's if online voting is something that is desired and SASS either can't or won't provide a way to make this happen, then we can find a way, I'll personally set up a forum separate from here that will have what you guys need.

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Not all clubs are managed the same way, at least not around here.  Some clubs vote for their TG, and vote for their President/MD, some clubs the MD/President position is a benevolent dictatorship and the MD/President picks a TG, no voting at all.

 

I think that all the clubs I shoot at are well run and to the extent I hear from them their TGs are doing their jobs.  We get bulletins about rule changes/clarifications and updates about SASS news.

 

Having said that, if one of them wasn't doing his job, at some clubs there is no mechanism for replacing him other than if the MD chooses to.

 

If SASS has a mechanism in place to auto-email about expired membership I don't see why it would be that difficult to auto-email members with a link to some type of SurveyMonkey software and let members vote directly on rule changes.  If they don't respond to the email at least they had their chance.  That way it's one person one vote, no need to worry about club size or whether the TG is voting the way members want him to.  Open your email, click on the link, read the issue at hand, vote, majority wins.

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I think someone should institute the possibility of a spelling bee.

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52 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

 

I agree that any TG not doing the job ought to be replaced. (if you can find ANYONE that will take the job) It has been many years since any item has been voted on,  so I doubt that sour grapes over some failed voting issue has much to do with the current attitude trend. As for a TG being inactive… There is pitifully little for a TG to do other than to make sure that the latest announced Clarifications are disseminated to the membership that they represent. Attending the occasional TG meeting at a Sanctioned match and discussing “Stuff” is of course something that they can do … but without some means to vote, any blossoms that might appear at these meetings will never turn to fruit. At this point, Talk is about the only thing available to the TGs. There is no other avenue for them. There are some long time TGs that have given up and resigned their positions out of frustration. I do understand that… year after year of idleness wears on a person. No doubt in my mind that there are some folks that are pleased to see the “Old Folks” leave… I think that there are some that believe the Oldsters are holding the Game back… well without them the game is over.  Keeping in touch with the Roots of the Game is very important. So, without prejudice, I am sure that the TGs would be interested in some meaningful advice/suggestions that might motivate them. Motivation come from the Top… failure in the lower ranks is ALWAYS a failure from the top.  

 

 

As you've reminded me several times I'm not nearly as sage on these topics as you are. That being said when I attend the TG meeting and the CEO of SASS is standing there asking for input and offering a direct link of contact and no one takes her up on it I'm not real sure where to go from there. As for me I don't want the "old folks" going anywhere. There is no such thing as a martyr in a volunteer organization no matter how hard one may try to make it so. I've been around long enough to know when a talking point is more about throwing shade than actually coming up with productive ideas. Does anyone remember that there has been a ton of rule changes over the last 10 years which the TG's were responsible for. What major changes are needed that are holding the game back currently? I guess if you look hard enough you can always find something to change. But to what end? 

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Yes, always something can be found to change... and cry about. Seems like we have more than enough of that.

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I somewhat agree that we don't need a bunch of new rules.  I firmly believe that we need to get rid of some of the current rules/penalties.  I'm more interested in voting out current penalties than adding new ones.

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People should remember that being a Territorial Governor involves a lot more than just voting on new rules. There is a lot more to do. We are supposed to keep alive the history and spirit of the game and encourage the growth of SASS. The TG should be conducting new shooter clinics, encouraging their members to all get RO certified and to know the Handbook. And keep them posted on rule clarifications. We should be the most knowledgeable on the rules so our members can come to us with questions.

I agree with Deuce, I can't think of any major changes that need to happen that are holding back the sport. It is alive and well right now.

If we can get a TG Summit in the future, great. But in the meantime there is plenty of work to do for my club.

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On 2/26/2019 at 8:26 AM, Snakebite said:

It was rescheduled and took place on Stage 5, inside the Saloon on Saturday at 5:30. The biggest thing that I took away from the meeting was that there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm within the TG group as a whole. Misty commented on the email that she sent out inquiring about interest in a Summit. She said that many TG didn't even bother to open the email, and many others expressed a non interest.. For the first time ever, I just sat there and didn't say a one word. IMO, the TG process has been circumvented by Mandates and creative "Clarifications". The TG are suppose to be the Rule Making body of the game, but with no effective voting mechanism in place, rule "Adjustments" are all done by a select few. Requiring the only votes to be done at a Summit just adds to the Apathy. Being involved as a TG should NOT be limited to only those that are wealthy enough to travel anywhere selected for a Summit. I certainly hope that things get back on track. We have come full circle at this point. It seems like all decisions are once again made at the top with little or no input from the Membership at large. That system failed in the early days and gave way to a very effective TG system which even though it had it's short comings, it at least provided the Membership with a Voice. That Voice has been Silenced.

 

Snakebite

 

It isn't like the TGs don't have some work pending that still needs to be taken care of, is it?

 

I say that because there is at least one rule change that was recommended eight months ago, considered and amended by the ROC, and then suggested back to the TGs for a vote for a rule to be changed.

 

Quote

1. Eliminate the automatic SDQ penalty for leaving the LT and coming to the line of engagement with the hammer back on the rifle. 

"In such instances, the shooter would be directed to point the rifle safely into the back berm, bring the hammer to FULL COCK if it's in the "safety notch, and pull the trigger.  If no bullet was fired, the shooter would be directed to finish staging firearms and to complete the stage (No Call).  If a round fired when the shooter pulled the trigger, the shooter would be assessed a SDQ and directed to proceed to the ULT." 

RECOMMENDATION: YES…CHANGE THE RULE AS SUGGESTED (amended re "safety notch")

 

What is preventing a TG from calling for a vote on the proposed change? Right here - right now?

 

You know, if one TG, just one TG, does it, they may be told that they need to wait for a Summit and their problem goes away.

 

And if two TGs do it, together, they may tell them that they don't have an easy way to do it and we'll have to wait and try again at the next Summit.

 

And if three TGs do it! Can you imagine three TGs picking up a phone or emailing sass, asking for a vote on this matter? Well folks, they may think that the TGs are finally getting organized and serious about something.


And can you imagine fifty TGs a day? I said FIFTY TGs a day picking up a phone and calling, sending an email enquiring, calling for a vote on this one matter?

 

Friends, they may think it's an enthusiastic movement...

 

And, Cowboys and Cowgirls, that is what it should be.  

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15 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

It isn't like the TGs don't have some work pending that still needs to be taken care of, is it?

 

I say that because there is at least one rule change that was recommended eight months ago, considered and amended by the ROC, and then suggested back to the TGs for a vote for a rule to be changed.

 

 

What is preventing a TG from calling for a vote on the proposed change? Right here - right now?

 

You know, if one TG, just one TG, does it, they may be told that they need to wait for a Summit and their problem goes away.

 

And if two TGs do it, together, they may tell them that they don't have an easy way to do it and we'll have to wait and try again at the next Summit.

 

And if three TGs do it! Can you imagine three TGs picking up a phone or emailing sass, asking for a vote on this matter? Well folks, they may think that the TGs are finally getting organized and serious about something.


And can you imagine fifty TGs a day? I said FIFTY TGs a day picking up a phone and calling, sending an email enquiring, calling for a vote on this one matter?

 

Friends, they may think it's an enthusiastic movement...

 

And, Cowboys and Cowgirls, that is what it should be.  

Been watching Alice's Restaurant?

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3 minutes ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said:

Been watching Alice's Restaurant?

 

If you want to be the Rule Making body and stuff, you got to get organized and energized.

 

 

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For my two cents, TG’s are like the members elected to the House of Representatives. I’m from Montana, we have one representative. He has one vote same as Nancy P one TG one vote period. My hat is in the TG ring because I am willing to bring the voice of my club to the meeting and represent their voice. What I’m asking for is an agenda and time and place to cast my vote. I asked if the Winter Range scheduled meeting had an agenda,  read the post, nothing submitted. I voted in favor of the TG Convention hoping it comes to light. If not then I suggest we formalize a meeting at one of the big shoots be it Winter Range, End of the Trail or whatever just formalize it, put out an agenda and topics to vote on and Lord willing I will be there.

 

Thank you

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Many good suggestions here.

 

My view from the saddle......

 

- The majority of newer SASS members don't even know what the TGs are supposed to do. Those who do know, or at least have an inking, have come to realize over time that the SASS hierarchy make the rules no matter what any member suggests or thinks. 

 

- From my understanding, only TGs attending the summit/meeting can vote on items presented. As mentioned previously, many TGs do not have the means to attend due to work, financial restraints, family commitments, etc. Maybe many TGs have become apathetic to their volunteer position due to repeated attempts ending in failures and don't want to waste their time and money of something that seems pointless.

 

- In short, the TG system just isn't working due to many reasons including, but not limited to,  those listed above.

 

My suggestions......

 

- Let all of the paid membership vote on all items that the TGs would vote on. I don't suggest that it be done by Email or the like. Use the postal service. Now I know that could get expensive, so............voting members would have to use their own mailing material to send it back. SASS could even ask for "donations" such as the NRA does. You know, please donate 2, 5, 10, other. This would maybe cover some, if not all, of the cost of mailing.

 

- TGs would announce results at the clubs they represent. 

 

 

 

I don't know where the answer lies but remaining silent isn't one of them.

 

 

Side note.......The Alice's Restaurant reference brought a smile to my day.

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35 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

If you want to be the Rule Making body and stuff, you got to get organized and energized.

 

 

Maybe you missed the joke, here are some of the lyrics from Alice's Restaurant. I thought the similarity was amusing

"Or you may be in a similar situation, and if you're in a situation like 
That, there's only one thing you can do
Walk into the shrink wherever you are, just walk in, say, "Shrink, you 
Can get anything you want at Alice's Restaurant", and walk out
You know, if one person, just one person, does it, they may think he's 
Really sick and they won't take him
And if two people do it, in harmony, they may think they're both faggots and 
They won't take either of them
And if three people do it! Can you imagine three people walkin' in, singin' 
A bar of "Alice's Restaurant" and walkin' out? They may think it's an 
Organization!
And can you imagine fifty people a day? I said FIFTY people a day 
Walkin' in, singin' a bar of "Alice's Restaurant" and walkin' out? Friends
They may think it's a Movement, and that's what it is THE Alices's
Restaurant anti-massacre movement! And all you gotta do to join is to 
Sing it the next time it comes around on the guitar"

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If we want to talk about changing the system....Here is a thought for discussion.

 

Lock the shooter's handbook for 2 years. No changes, tweaks, or clarifications during those two years.

 

Starting in January the year before the new handbook takes affect, anyone can submit a proposed rule change. They must be submitted by April 1.

 

The proposed rule changes are then sent to a rules committee and are reviewed by them and the board of directors. This time also includes time for the rules committee to review the existing shooter handbook for changes, clarifications, modifications, or restructuring.

 

Rule changes that make it out of that review are posted for comments by the membership by July 1. This period lasts for 30 days after which time the rules committee and the board of directors can review the comments and amend the changes as necessary.

 

The amended rules are then posted for the TGs to vote on beginning September 1. Online voting can be done any time during the next two weeks. At which time, the rule changes are either accepted or defeated by that vote.

 

The rules approved by TG vote will be posted in the new shooter handbook no later than December 1 of that year with the rules taking affect at the start of the new year.

 

 

 

All this does a couple of things.


It helps the TGs feel a part of the rules making process again.

It negates the need for all the TGs to gather in one place to vote on rule changes.
It helps TGs who can't travel to EOT and WR each year but want to participate have an option to do so without having to give an attendee their proxy.

It helps negate the cry that the rules change too often and are hard to keep up with.

By locking the rulebook, you negate the issue of keeping up with clarifications that are not in the Handbook.
It gives the membership a chance to allow their voice to be heard in instances where TGs are AWOL or non-participatory.

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Howdy,

When it came to the summits ( I attended a lot of them) all of the TG's could vote. If a TG could not attend they could give their proxies to a TG who was attending ( I would have a fist full) or they could send in their proxies to the SASS office. So  there was no reason for not voting. At most of the summits  there was less than 75 % of the clubs did not vote. If memory serves me right one had about 62%.   Some folks are talking about membership voting on line , one has wonder how many SASS members actually visit the wire and would they take the time to vote. 

 

 I'm all for any new ideas that could help SASS and make it grow. It also means that all members should take an interest. If your club has a TG who is in name only then replace him/her. If the TG idea is going to be revamped or replace for something new it still may not work why, unless the large majority of members "really" take an interest. The next system could  also fail.

 

I remember hearing complaints that rules were being voting on by less the 2/3 majority by the TG's. How would the membership feel if less say only 40 % of the membership voted on line.

 

Just my $.02

Nawlins

 

 

 

 

 

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On 2/26/2019 at 10:27 AM, Dogmeat Dad, SASS #48563L said:

 

Have you ever watched sausage being made?  Imagine that 10 time over!  :P

 

Nope but I've seen worse, Maryland gun legislation being made. Seeing the clubs you belong to you might have seen it too. We might even know each other from before I escaped the Glorious Peoples' Republik.

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On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2019 at 6:26 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I think voting would be a singular event... Easy enough to administer based on our unique SASS number.

People can have multiple numbers they keep current at a time. I know of two people who have had two numbers each. Or, they did. I haven't seen her use the old name so maybe she let that number go. He mostly uses the old name.  Maybe he will chime in.

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1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

People can have multiple numbers they keep current at a time. I know of two people who have had two numbers each. Or, they did. I haven't seen her use the old name so maybe she let that number go. He mostly uses the old name.  Maybe he will chime in.

That's easily dealt with. Database would have them linked.

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If the database is designed to accommodate those links.  Otherwise, it's all just another piece of data aimlessly occupying space for somebody to access in some random method for some random idea...

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1 hour ago, San Quinton, SASS #4818 said:

If the database is designed to accommodate those links.  Otherwise, it's all just another piece of data aimlessly occupying space for somebody to access in some random method for some random idea...

Uh, yeah... That could be said about databases in general:lol:

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