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Barry Sloe

Results of the WR TG Meeting

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Can someone give a summary of the TG meeting that was held at WR?

 

Thanks,

BS

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it was cancelled,,,   apparently I missed any announcement as to when it was to be held later

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It was rescheduled and took place on Stage 5, inside the Saloon on Saturday at 5:30. The biggest thing that I took away from the meeting was that there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm within the TG group as a whole. Misty commented on the email that she sent out inquiring about interest in a Summit. She said that many TG didn't even bother to open the email, and many others expressed a non interest.. For the first time ever, I just sat there and didn't say a one word. IMO, the TG process has been circumvented by Mandates and creative "Clarifications". The TG are suppose to be the Rule Making body of the game, but with no effective voting mechanism in place, rule "Adjustments" are all done by a select few. Requiring the only votes to be done at a Summit just adds to the Apathy. Being involved as a TG should NOT be limited to only those that are wealthy enough to travel anywhere selected for a Summit. I certainly hope that things get back on track. We have come full circle at this point. It seems like all decisions are once again made at the top with little or no input from the Membership at large. That system failed in the early days and gave way to a very effective TG system which even though it had it's short comings, it at least provided the Membership with a Voice. That Voice has been Silenced.

 

Snakebite

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Hope for a change in that!! If the Membership does not feel they have a voice well-------------------------------!

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

It was rescheduled and took place on Stage 5, inside the Saloon on Saturday at 5:30. The biggest thing that I took away from the meeting was that there seems to be a lack of enthusiasm within the TG group as a whole. Misty commented on the email that she sent out inquiring about interest in a Summit. She said that many TG didn't even bother to open the email, and many others expressed a non interest.. For the first time ever, I just sat there and didn't say a one word. IMO, the TG process has been circumvented by Mandates and creative "Clarifications". The TG are suppose to be the Rule Making body of the game, but with no effective voting mechanism in place, rule "Adjustments" are all done by a select few. Requiring the only votes to be done at a Summit just adds to the Apathy. Being involved as a TG should NOT be limited to only those that are wealthy enough to travel anywhere selected for a Summit. I certainly hope that things get back on track. We have come full circle at this point. It seems like all decisions are once again made at the top with little or no input from the Membership at large. That system failed in the early days and gave way to a very effective TG system which even though it had it's short comings, it at least provided the Membership with a Voice. That Voice has been Silenced.

 

Snakebite

Amen to that! (from a former TG who felt cutoff at the knees)

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I don't know if it is possible but sure would be nice for the general membership is see what is being discussed on the TG forum even with no access for comment.  Might encourage more involvement.

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38 minutes ago, Ace Hanlon said:

I don't know if it is possible but sure would be nice for the general membership is see what is being discussed on the TG forum even with no access for comment.  Might encourage more involvement.

 

Have you ever watched sausage being made?  Imagine that 10 time over!  :P

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1 hour ago, Ace Hanlon said:

I don't know if it is possible but sure would be nice for the general membership is see what is being discussed on the TG forum even with no access for comment.  Might encourage more involvement.

There is little of nothing being discussed... without a means of delivering a vote on anything, discussion is a pretty Moot thing. As a TG I try to keep the members of my club abreast of the latest rule changes,...………. I mean, Clarifications. I hope that most TGs at least do their best to disseminate what "Official" information that they come by. That brings up a point that BJZ strongly made at the opening of the meeting. Things that you read on the Social Media are NOT official. They have a way of spreading very quickly. Only the "Word" given by the ruling body is Official.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

Interesting to watch these predictions unfold. :mellow: :(

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
3 hours ago, Bronc said:

Hope for a change in that!! If the Membership does not feel they have a voice well-------------------------------!

  We all know what HOPE AND CHANGE  got us 10 yrs ago.:FlagAm:

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

There is little of nothing being discussed... without a means of delivering a vote on anything, discussion is a pretty Moot thing. As a TG I try to keep the members of my club abreast of the latest rule changes,...………. I mean, Clarifications. I hope that most TGs at least do their best to disseminate what "Official" information that they come by. That brings up a point that BJZ strongly made at the opening of the meeting. Things that you read on the Social Media are NOT official. They have a way of spreading very quickly. Only the "Word" given by the ruling body is Official.

Absolutely right on. I have heard more than once people complane about the secret rules that are not written in the rule book. Unofficial BS from Facebook or archived on some other forum are not helpful. 

All the rules and clairifications should be in the Shooters Handbook. Period. Every new rule or clairification should be added to the Handbook when it is adopted. If it is not in the Shooters Handbook it is not a rule. Surching the wire, digging through the RO 1 and RO 2 resources and then looking through another collection of clairifications that may or may not actually be settled issues is rediculas. 

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And when the TG's do make a change to help the game......

It can be overruled. :rolleyes:

Plus the fact many small clubs have no TG.........-_-

Respectfully,

OLG

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Okay... So... What do y'all want?

 

How's about a bullet point list of suggestions?

 

Phantom

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3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Okay... So... What do y'all want?

 

How's about a bullet point list of suggestions?

 

Phantom

Wouldn't this be a good topic for a separate post/thread on the wire?

It would be a step in the 'rite' direction.

Great idea Phantom:excl:

OLG

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23 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Okay... So... What do y'all want?

 

How's about a bullet point list of suggestions?

 

Phantom

HI Phantom... It has been said, and was unequivocally stated at the TG meeting, that the rules are made by the TGs... yet there have been changes since the last Summit. In the past, the SHB, and RO Material were the rules, and the only Official available source for the membership to find out what the rules were. Those documents were prepared by the COMBINED ROC, and submitted to the TGs for approval/ratification. We now have a completely different SHB and RO I. It's production was not a combined effort, but rather was produced and then Mandated into service without benefit of the TGs or even all of the ROC members. It's no wonder that enthusiasm has dwindled. So... for the first "Bullet", I would suggest that a Voting system be put into place that would allow, after a period of discussion, the TGs to actually vote on what rules they want and don't want. I realize that the name of the game is registered, but the "Game", now belongs to the membership, and they are the only ones that should be making the rules.

 

1. Allow for online voting at least every other year.

 

 

Snakebite

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1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

HI Phantom... It has been said, and was unequivocally stated at the TG meeting, that the rules are made by the TGs... yet there have been changes since the last Summit. In the past, the SHB, and RO Material were the rules, and the only Official available source for the membership to find out what the rules were. Those documents were prepared by the COMBINED ROC, and submitted to the TGs for approval/ratification. We now have a completely different SHB and RO I. It's production was not a combined effort, but rather was produced and then Mandated into service without benefit of the TGs or even all of the ROC members. It's no wonder that enthusiasm has dwindled. So... for the first "Bullet", I would suggest that a Voting system be put into place that would allow, after a period of discussion, the TGs to actually vote on what rules they want and don't want. I realize that the name of the game is registered, but the "Game", now belongs to the membership, and they are the only ones that should be making the rules.

 

1. Allow for online voting at least every other year.

 

 

Snakebite

Would the voting be weighed at all or would a TG from a club with membership of say...5 members have the same voting power of a club with 50 members?

 

Oh, and I like your first bullet point ;)

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+1 for online voting. This has been shot down numerous times on the TG Wire.

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

HI Phantom... It has been said, and was unequivocally stated at the TG meeting, that the rules are made by the TGs... yet there have been changes since the last Summit. In the past, the SHB, and RO Material were the rules, and the only Official available source for the membership to find out what the rules were. Those documents were prepared by the COMBINED ROC, and submitted to the TGs for approval/ratification. We now have a completely different SHB and RO I. It's production was not a combined effort, but rather was produced and then Mandated into service without benefit of the TGs or even all of the ROC members. It's no wonder that enthusiasm has dwindled. So... for the first "Bullet", I would suggest that a Voting system be put into place that would allow, after a period of discussion, the TGs to actually vote on what rules they want and don't want. I realize that the name of the game is registered, but the "Game", now belongs to the membership, and they are the only ones that should be making the rules.

 

1. Allow for online voting at least every other year.

 

 

Snakebite

 

Are suggesting civil disobedience ?:o :FlagAm:

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32 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 

Are suggesting civil disobedience ?:o :FlagAm:

By whatever means necessary.;)

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I am NOT suggesting any uprising,  Barn Burning or any such thing. In fact, I encourage you to support the Game and SASS as much as Possible. It is SASS to whom we owe this wonderful Game that has become a way of life for many of us. That doesn't mean "Roll Over" for everything that comes down from above. Don't be apathetic... sound off and let them know If you don't like something.

 

Phantom... My personal thoughts on representation of each club is indeed some sort of weighted voting power... maybe find some break point where a club has Two TG votes due to their size... that way the vote just might be split on some issues. I don't believe that the Water Hole # 9 club with 2 full time members 8 part time members and a pet goat should be able to cancel out the vote of The Marvelous Ranahans with over 200 active members.... that just doesn't seem right. So, yeah... I support a weighted voting system.

 

Snakebite

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

 Sort of like taking away the electoral college so that the larger clubs would rule and the smaller clubs would have less say. I have heard this before with those who want the larger states to dictate to the smaller ones in elections, I say NO! to that.:) :FlagAm:

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1 hour ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

 Sort of like taking away the electoral college so that the larger clubs would rule and the smaller clubs would have less say. I have heard this before with those who want the larger states to dictate to the smaller ones in elections, I say NO! to that.:) :FlagAm:

Last I looked, SASS wasn't a constitutional republic...<_<

 

Would love to hear something constructive from you in the subject.

 

Phantom

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How about getting a "State Vote". All the TG's from each state vote. Majority wins. That makes one vote from each state. The majority passes whatever is being voted on. 50 States=50 votes!

 

 

Okay you come up with something better!!!:P:lol:

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In this day & age, with the capabilities of electronic communication, the TG process is out-dated.  The membership should have a direct voice in rule-making.   Since we're not a representative democracy, i.e., not all TGs are elected by their clubs, the amount of representation the club has is debatable.

 

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2 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

How about getting a "State Vote". All the TG's from each state vote. Majority wins. That makes one vote from each state. The majority passes whatever is being voted on. 50 States=50 votes!

 

 

Okay you come up with something better!!!:P:lol:

So, what do you do with the TG's representing all the other countries then? :huh:

OLG

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1 hour ago, Griff said:

In this day & age, with the capabilities of electronic communication, the TG process is out-dated.  The membership should have a direct voice in rule-making.   Since we're not a representative democracy, i.e., not all TGs are elected by their clubs, the amount of representation the club has is debatable.

 

So you would do away with the TG system?

 

Not an idea without merit in today's world. Would you then suggest that SASS would make suggestions for vote based on member research?

 

Phantom

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If granting votes to clubs by membership is a debatable option, would folks have to declare their home club, or could folks be claimed at each club they are a member of?

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

If granting votes to clubs by membership is a debatable option, would folks have to declare their home club, or could folks be claimed at each club they are a member of?

I think voting would be a singular event... Easy enough to administer based on our unique SASS number.

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How does one audit the number of members in a club? Our club has founding members and others that help with club duties. No one pays dues and there is no process of becoming a member, just show up, show a positive attitude, and help out, no dues. We are also in Wyoming, there is a low number of shooters in our state, 

we have a pretty good attendance at our annual event, mostly out of state shooters. Perhaps, clubs with the highest attended annual matches should have more say in the voting process than those that don't have much attendance. After all, they do have much more skin in the game. 

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

So you would do away with the TG system?

 

Not an idea without merit in today's world. Would you then suggest that SASS would make suggestions for vote based on member research?

 

Phantom

I ain't the brightest bulb on the Christmas tree... barely have a grasp on the question, let alone an answer.

 

The problem, as I see it, is that SASS, like most other "volunteer" organizations are run by those that have the time, desire and resources to do so.  Those without the time and resources always feel marginalized, without a voice, let alone meaningful input into the functioning of the organization.  In our case, rule-making.  A legit process and criteria for suggestions to be considered is stage one... selection of a body of knowledgeable persons to review said suggestions before they're presented to the membership for decision-making.  What we've never had is part one.  Rule change suggestions should have to break a certain threshold to be considered.   This has been a moving target in the past.  Because a change is popular, doesn't necessarily make it a good change.   Most of the rule changes over the past 20 years fall into this category.  Firearm modifications first and foremost amongst those.

 

 

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I actually don't have a suggestion.

But I will give a big 'Thank You' to those of you discussing this subject in a very respectful way AND

the suggestions already mentioned have great merit of considerations.

 

Keep it up.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Assassin said:

How does one audit the number of members in a club? Our club has founding members and others that help with club duties. No one pays dues and there is no process of becoming a member, just show up, show a positive attitude, and help out, no dues. We are also in Wyoming, there is a low number of shooters in our state, 

we have a pretty good attendance at our annual event, mostly out of state shooters. Perhaps, clubs with the highest attended annual matches should have more say in the voting process than those that don't have much attendance. After all, they do have much more skin in the game. 

Perhaps the best way to move forward is the consideration of direct vote on items that have gone thru some kind of committee ... ??

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Obviously, voting by email isn't going to work considering the TG's didn't respond to the email sent out by Misty. Although, I didn't receive the email until another TG  sent it to me with questions, it was a surprise to me and many others. I don't know about other TG's, how much actual communication do you get from SASS headquarters? 

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1 hour ago, Assassin said:

Obviously, voting by email isn't going to work considering the TG's didn't respond to the email sent out by Misty. Although, I didn't receive the email until another TG  sent it to me with questions, it was a surprise to me and many others. I don't know about other TG's, how much actual communication do you get from SASS headquarters? 

Vote via the SASS website? New section dedicated???

 

Log into the section and valid SASS number is logged as voted????

 

Something like this?

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3 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Vote via the SASS website? New section dedicated???

 

Log into the section and valid SASS number is logged as voted????

 

Something like this?

The TG's wanted something like that on the TG Wire and haven't gotten it yet.

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