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Sidewinder Bill

WTC - Dropped pistol while setting target

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After a stage was clear a spotter went down range to set a popper target.  In the process of bending down to load the target, his pistol flipped out.  It broke the 170.  It of course was empty.  Any call?  No call?  Have not had this happen before so I put this to the experts.  Thanks.  


SWB

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No call.

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Thanks Yul Lose & Badlands Bob.  That was our call just wanted conformation.  

SWB

 

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The shooter was not on the “firing line.”  

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It happened to me once, it was a no call

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as said above, No Call.

The "dropped gun" SDQ/MDQ penalties only come into play when the shooter in on the "firing line" (loading table until the guns are cleared at the unloading table, or during the stage.

"- Any unloaded firearm dropped during a stage will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty assessment. This does not apply to holstered revolvers that remain “in leather” in the event of an equipment failure" 

"- Any loaded firearm dropped during a stage will result in a Match Disqualification penalty assessment."   SHB vers 23.2 pg 17

(see also page 23) 

 

 

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Does anyone read the manual anymore?

 

Just curious...

 

:blink:

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Devils advocate question. What if the pistol swept someone as it fell to the ground?

 

Edited

 

Isn't the 170 degree rule always in effect?  Reference 170 Rule  SHB pg 18

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1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Devils advocate question. What if the pistol swept someone as it fell to the ground?

 

Edited

 

Isn't the 170 degree rule always in effect?  Reference 170 Rule  SHB pg 18

No. RTM

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6 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No. RTM

 

Maybe you should.


Directly from SHB 23.2

 

Quote

 

The 170° Rule

 

The 170° rule means the muzzle of a firearm must always be straight down range (+/– 85° in any direction). Muzzle direction and muzzle control is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. The 170° rule is the backbone of all safe firearm handling and is always in effect.

 

- A muzzle must not be allowed to “sweep” the other participants at any time.

- Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.

- A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster.

- Failure to manage safe muzzle direction is grounds for a Stage Disqualification penalty assessment, and for repeat offenses, a Match Disqualification penalty.

 

NOTE: An obvious exception to this rule exists, where the shooter is given the ability to draw and holster revolvers from approved, legal holsters without penalty. Further exception is given when retrieving and returning vertically staged double barrel shotguns without penalty,


 

 

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Just another devil's advocate post. What line do I gauge my 170 to when I get out of the truck?

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1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Devils advocate question. What if the pistol swept someone as it fell to the ground?

Isn't the 170 degree rule always in effect?  Reference 170 Rule  SHB pg 18

 

The 170 Rule isn't referenced regarding dropped firearms, as the DQ penalties "trump" any additional penalties during the single simultaneous violation.

Dropped firearm penalties only apply to SHOOTERS on the defined "firing line" (LT TO ULT)...NOT to T/Os, spotters, target setters, or brass pickers.

 

Quote

Any unloaded firearm dropped during a stage will result in a Stage Disqualification penalty assessment

SHB p.17

 

Quote

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ)

A Stage Disqualification (SDQ or “Stage DQ”) is generally a safety violation of a more serious nature, and means the competitor’s time and performance on the course of fire is disqualified as a result of the violating action by the shooter.  

- Any dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line.

SHB p.23

Dropped firearm – a firearm that has left the shooter’s control and comes to rest at a location or position other than where it was intended.

Firing line – from first firearm placed on the loading table until all firearms are confirmed as cleared at the unloading table. 

SHB p.44

Stage – synonymous with “Course of Fire” from the beep of the timer once the shooter has signified “ready” to the last shot fired.

SHB p.45

 

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4 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

Just another devil's advocate post. What line do I gauge my 170 to when I get out of the truck?

 

THE 170 RULE...

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1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Maybe you should.


Directly from SHB 23.2

 

 

I should have said: Read the whole manual.

 

:lol:

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5 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Thanks pwb. I couldn't find that to quote it in response to " the 170 is always in effect" being underlined in the previous post.

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If the 170 rule only applies on the firing line...

 

What is the call when a person sweeps another while transporting their firearms to and from the firing line?

 

I ask because because I want to understand and apply the rules correctly. 

 

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Quote

What is the call when a person sweeps another while transporting their firearms to and from the firing line?

 

"Muzzles up, please"  or  "Watch your muzzle, please don't sweep me."

 

Most ranges have some (non-SASS) rules which may have to be brought to bear on the situation, though. 

 

Quote

What line do I gauge my 170 to when I get out of the truck?

 

A "SASS 170 with respect to down range on the stage" does not exist for areas away from the firing line.   Use your proper gun handling techniques.    Muzzles up will take care of almost all situations.    Unloaded guns cased will take care of most situations.  Guns open and in carts will take care of most situations.  An unsafe gun handling call would be something that could be called if a shooter was unable to comply with proper gun handling requests.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

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49 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

If the 170 rule only applies on the firing line...

 

What is the call when a person sweeps another while transporting their firearms to and from the firing line?

 

I ask because because I want to understand and apply the rules correctly. 

 

 

"Sweeping" is a different safety violation that doesn't necessarily involve the "170 rule" (even though it is mentioned in that section).

 

REF: SHB "Penalties Overview"
pp. 22-24

 

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23 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

"Sweeping" is a different safety violation that doesn't necessarily involve the "170 rule" (even though it is mentioned in that section).

 

REF: SHB "Penalties Overview"
pp. 22-24

 

 

Thanks but that is exactly why I am confused. 

 

Recent clarifications have been that penalties only apply to the shooter on the firing line. However there are exceptions which I agree with. I just wish the SHB was a lot less contradictory with its wording.

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Tennessee Williams poses a question which sounds obvious but may not be. The range at Wartrace is shaped similar to a "question mark" laid on its open side. Stage 1 shoots WNW and it sweeps to nearly East by stage 5. Stages 6-10 have a common firing line and shoot to the Southeast, round a berm and stages 11-16 shoot ESE. Parking is next to stage one and north of stage 15.  It is much more complicated than someplace that has a single common firing line that covers 5-10 or more stages, like a state facility etc. Google Earth Bugscuffle on hiway 269 outside of Wartrace TN and you may be able to find it, where the high power lines cross 269. Recent pix show shadows of the targets . And we would like everybody to come to the Tn State match Oct 10-12,2019.

 

Imis  

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9 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Thanks but that is exactly why I am confused. 

 

Recent clarifications have been that penalties only apply to the shooter on the firing line. However there are exceptions which I agree with. I just wish the SHB was a lot less contradictory with its wording.

You're saying it's contradictory ... Are you sure you're not taking wording out of context?

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1 hour ago, Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646 said:

Tennessee Williams poses a question which sounds obvious but may not be. The range at Wartrace is shaped similar to a "question mark" laid on its open side. Stage 1 shoots WNW and it sweeps to nearly East by stage 5. Stages 6-10 have a common firing line and shoot to the Southeast, round a berm and stages 11-16 shoot ESE. Parking is next to stage one and north of stage 15.  It is much more complicated than someplace that has a single common firing line that covers 5-10 or more stages, like a state facility etc. Google Earth Bugscuffle on hiway 269 outside of Wartrace TN and you may be able to find it, where the high power lines cross 269. Recent pix show shadows of the targets . And we would like everybody to come to the Tn State match Oct 10-12,2019.

 

Imis  

 

Capture.PNG.e9c5dfd3579c993665de189ffc88e590.PNG

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17 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

great pic!

 

does it get crowded during your big matches?

CR It does , with 6-10 being the closest. We try to only use two or three of them, to maximize space. You can see the 170 problem, we have to judge it on the nearest stage. The surrounding hills are beautiful. And as to the OP- no call.  Y'all come

 

Imis

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Regarding sweeping others when NOT the shooter, I have been wondering about folks taking their gun belts off and laying them in their carts.  If the cleared pistols are allowed to rest on their sides in the bottom of the cart, for example, is there a potential violation if the cart is wheeled about the range like that?  What if it is sitting still and someone walks by it?  Do they sweep themselves?

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7 minutes ago, Juiceharp Jen said:

Regarding sweeping others when NOT the shooter, I have been wondering about folks taking their gun belts off and laying them in their carts.  If the cleared pistols are allowed to rest on their sides in the bottom of the cart, for example, is there a potential violation if the cart is wheeled about the range like that?  What if it is sitting still and someone walks by it?  Do they sweep themselves?

 

SHB pg 17

- A holstered revolver (loaded or empty) with the hammer fully down on an empty
chamber or expended case is considered safe and may not be interpreted as
sweeping another shooter while safely secured in the holster.

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3 hours ago, Juiceharp Jen said:

Regarding sweeping others when NOT the shooter, I have been wondering about folks taking their gun belts off and laying them in their carts.  If the cleared pistols are allowed to rest on their sides in the bottom of the cart, for example, is there a potential violation if the cart is wheeled about the range like that?  What if it is sitting still and someone walks by it?  Do they sweep themselves?

Good pistols would behave themselves and not go bang when someone walks by. Now those evil weapons might go bang when someone walks by.

 

Moral of the story, know your guns.

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