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Hoss

WTC Inertial trigger reset

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I’m TO. Standing just behind and to shooters weak side. 1st Shotgun boom. 2nd shot nothing. Shooter quickly bangs butt on staging barrel, resetting trigger.  Goes on from there no problem. 

My question: I’m about 99% sure that the barrels were pointing straight up when he banged the buttstock. No other RO said anything. I was not 100% that he broke the 170 as I was properly positioned behind him. I think shotgun barrels could have been 169.5 (although I don’t think so) I let it go as a no call, but it’s bothered me. It seems banging the stock like that would be a good way to have an AD. I also think it very likely shooter broke the 170.  I could have justified an unsafe gun handling or a breaking the 170 call.  But I was just not 100% sure, so benefit of doubt to shooter. Had a spotter said something I would have backed up that call. 

How should I have handled this? 

 

 

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Most calls made on the 170 rule will be somewhat contentious.  Because it is a pure judgement call.  And because it's a severe penalty.   Because of the contentiousness, many ROs or spotters are VERY reluctant to call it until it becomes real obvious, or it degenerates into "other person covered by a barrel of a loaded gun" (which is what the 170 barrier is trying to prevent, of course).

 

If you had good view of the gun and were paying CLOSE attention to the barrel position and it was obvious (not borderline), call a 170 violation and award the SDQ penalty.

 

If there were doubts, hold your tongue and mention it to the shooter once he has cleared the line and put his guns away.   A safety minded shooter will take that warning very seriously and you won't see a repeat.   But if you do see it again, make the call mentioned above when it happens the second time.

 

That is how I'd handle it.

Good luck, GJ

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Howdy HOSS.

If you were 99% sure that the barrels were "Straight Up", then that definitely is breaking the 170 

because "straight up" is 180.

 

Thats how I read your post info.

 

..........Widder

 

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20 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Howdy HOSS.

If you were 99% sure that the barrels were "Straight Up", then that definitely is breaking the 170 

because "straight up" is 180.

 

Thats how I read your post info.

 

..........Widder

 

Just that 1%! 

Yes, 180 was in play. 

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On the rare occasions my SKB failed to reset, I kept the muzzles down range and spanked the buttstock, then fired the second barrel.

 

No need to accept an unsafe technique for clearing a gun malfunction.  The shooter could also have opened the gun, emptied it, reloaded and continued.

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1 hour ago, Hoss said:

Just that 1%! 

Yes, 180 was in play. 

I don't understand. What do you mean the 180 was in play??

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8 minutes ago, Hoss said:

Just that 1%! 

Yes, 180 was in play. 

 

Hoss,   

if the 180 was in play, then the 170 was already in violation.

 

I'm only making my assessment based on your description of the situation.

 

..........Widder

 

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PLUS ONE to J Bar, Phantom and Widder.  Banging the butt on the barrel??  Nah.  Just spank the butt will reset.  If the 180 (??) was already in play, it was already a SDQ for the 170.

 

One must wear one's Black Hat with pride.

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I don't think banging the stock on a shotgun on a barrel is the method that I'd choose for reset the triggers on my SKB but one thing about the discussion gives me pause.  The OP said he was 99% sure that the shooter broke the 170 which leaves 1% doubt.  What's the saying, if you think its a miss its a hit....benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.  If you are absolutely sure (100%) that the shooter broke then 170 then by all means award them what they earned, a SDQ.  If you aren't 100% sure then I don't think you should call it.  You should, however, warn the shooter that is was close and that they should pay attention to their muzzle direction at all times.

 

Kajun

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4 minutes ago, Krazy Kajun said:

I don't think banging the stock on a shotgun on a barrel is the method that I'd choose for reset the triggers on my SKB but one thing about the discussion gives me pause.  The OP said he was 99% sure that the shooter broke the 170 which leaves 1% doubt.  What's the saying, if you think its a miss its a hit....benefit of the doubt goes to the shooter.  If you are absolutely sure (100%) that the shooter broke then 170 then by all means award them what they earned, a SDQ.  If you aren't 100% sure then I don't think you should call it.  You should, however, warn the shooter that is was close and that they should pay attention to their muzzle direction at all times.

 

Kajun

 

Hey Krazy.

I agree with your post.... 

But I was making my comments based on the TO's assessment that the 

barrels were pointing "Straight Up" and under those observations,  99% sure of the 170 violation has 

already become a 100% violation.   Last time I checked,  "Straight Up" doesn't allow a 1% 'benefit of doubt' area.

 

Hope you is doin well.

 

..........Widder

 

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All,  as I said, in my mind I THINK the 170 was broken as he banged the butt against the barrel, which would have likely been 180. But, standing behind him, it was impossible to accurately assess the angle. It could have been within the 170. Happened fast, and  nobody else seemed to have had any concern. I certainly don’t care for that manner of resetting trigger. I’ve seen others slap butt, or bang it on prop while keeping muzzle more obviously downrange. I suspect the safest way would to just open, shuck, reload. Thanks to all for comments, I think Garrison Joe and Krazy Kajun hit the nail on the head. 

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Happened to me yesterday! One shell fired the other did not...likely I closed the action too lightly! It's an occasional thing when my concentration slips. I prefer not to abuse my slicked up race guns (not that they made me any faster or more accurate) so I shucked, reloaded and knocked that last one down and shucked again to end the stage. I'm thinking that it  might have even been a bit faster than banging the butt against a barrel! Altho, same time and less slapping is okay by me!

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2 hours ago, Hoss said:

All,  as I said, in my mind I THINK the 170 was broken as he banged the butt against the barrel, which would have likely been 180. But, standing behind him, it was impossible to accurately assess the angle. It could have been within the 170. Happened fast, and  nobody else seemed to have had any concern. I certainly don’t care for that manner of resetting trigger. I’ve seen others slap butt, or bang it on prop while keeping muzzle more obviously downrange. I suspect the safest way would to just open, shuck, reload. Thanks to all for comments, I think Garrison Joe and Krazy Kajun hit the nail on the head. 

 

 

Based on what I've highlighted above no, you can't make the call.  But like Garrison Joe said, I'd sure want to have a friendly word with the shooter after his guns were clear and let him know how close he was to earning a pretty major penalty.

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So it's not a Match DQ for breaking the 170, but a SDQ. Interesting. Sounds like a missed call.

The 170 in this game and 180 in other games are a generally a tough call because it's going to be contested most times with denial from the shooter. How do they contest it? I dunno. How can it be appealed? I dunno. It happens fast unless the shooter is a total screw up. You process it as rapidly as possible and then stop the shooter once you're sure. 

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Remember, the reason the rule says 170 degrees is so it will be called when the shooter "gets close" to breaking the 180.  We're not out there with protractors and instant replays so the rule had to be written in a way that was enforceable.  Getting close to breaking the 170 is as no call.  But you shoulda said something to them.  Now, if you meant that you were 99% sure the barrel broke the 180, it should have been called. 

 

 

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might want to hand off the timer and have 'the talk' away from the unloading table.  Lotta folks wear their feelings on their sleeves and this would lessen the embarrassment not having it done in front of the posse.

 

I would mention it to the RM later to see if s/he wants to consider the safety aspect of this move from that point forward

 

 

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4 hours ago, Hoss said:

All,  as I said, in my mind I THINK the 170 was broken as he banged the butt against the barrel, which would have likely been 180. 

Hey Hoss, I'm trying to wrap my head around this. Your description is kind of confusing to me. I may just be reading it wrong. Muzzle straight down range would be 90° or 3 o'clock. As the muzzle comes up to vertical 12 o'clock that is 180°. Well past breaking the 170 rule. The same holds true at straight down 6 o'clock. That's well past breaking the 170 rule as well. Only time you are allowed to go beyond 170° is while holstering, and that is only to 180° and you have to be in the process of holstering not just hanging out.

 

If the barrels were "likely" 180, then they were past 170. This happens quite a bit more than you'd think when someone shucks their double a certain way. Some people do not realize the 180 is vertical also.

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Agreed. But I was not in best position to view actual angle.  Could have been within the 170, but I doubt it. And not being 100% sure, deemed it a no call. If any other RO would have said something I would have made the call. Absent that, I just did not feel I could make the call.  I do regret not talking to Shooter off the line tho, expressing my concern. 

 

170 violations are probably toughest penalty to call. Usually happens quickly, and “barely” for lack of a better word. 

I think the only one I have called was a shooter shot his pistol dry, then was going to lay it on shelf instead of holster.  I yelled “holster” he turned around, gun in hand pointed at my belly and said “huh?”  That one was easy!!!!

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Agreed. But I was not in best position to view actual angle.  Could have been within the 170, but I doubt it. And not being 100% sure, deemed it a no call. If any other RO would have said something I would have made the call. Absent that, I just did not feel I could make the call.  I do regret not talking to Shooter off the line tho, expressing my concern. 

 

170 violations are probably toughest penalty to call. Usually happens quickly, and “barely” for lack of a better word. 

I think the only one I have called was a shooter shot his pistol dry, then was going to lay it on shelf instead of holster.  I yelled “holster” he turned around, gun in hand pointed at my belly and said “huh?”  That one was easy!!!!

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What if it was 169.9?  Thumping a loaded shotgun to reset part of the firing mechanism when it is in a position to send the shot somewhere other than clearly downrange isn't confidence inspiring.

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1 hour ago, Shotgun Clay said:

What if it was 169.9?  Thumping a loaded shotgun to reset part of the firing mechanism when it is in a position to send the shot somewhere other than clearly downrange isn't confidence inspiring.

It's fine...

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For the people with a SKB why would you want to slam the butt of the gun on anything? and risk damage and any safety call? all you have to do is push the selector button on the trigger over! I'm right handed so I keep mine on the right barrel first then if it does not switch all I have to do is push the button to the left. My SKB in ten years has only failed to switch one time and that worked great. V.D. 

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34 minutes ago, Von Dutch, SASS # 7995 said:

For the people with a SKB why would you want to slam the butt of the gun on anything? and risk damage and any safety call? all you have to do is push the selector button on the trigger over! I'm right handed so I keep mine on the right barrel first then if it does not switch all I have to do is push the button to the left. My SKB in ten years has only failed to switch one time and that worked great. V.D. 

All of mine are converted to mechanical switch. However, if I'm not shooting my shotgun last and have a stuck hull it will get the stock bumped on the table to clear the shells because I already have my other hand full of a gun of some sort ready to roll. I do that in a way the doesn't come close to the 170.

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Howdy Hoss, we go over the 170 and shotguns at the safety briefing. I use my cane to demonstrate the most common violations , straight up is the most common. We also cover it in WB for clearing a 1911 jamb. Good Luck:)

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362
18 hours ago, Hoss said:

I’m TO. Standing just behind and to shooters weak side. 1st Shotgun boom. 2nd shot nothing. Shooter quickly bangs butt on staging barrel, resetting trigger.  Goes on from there no problem. 

My question: I’m about 99% sure that the barrels were pointing straight up when he banged the buttstock. No other RO said anything. I was not 100% that he broke the 170 as I was properly positioned behind him. I think shotgun barrels could have been 169.5 (although I don’t think so) I let it go as a no call, but it’s bothered me. It seems banging the stock like that would be a good way to have an AD. I also think it very likely shooter broke the 170.  I could have justified an unsafe gun handling or a breaking the 170 call.  But I was just not 100% sure, so benefit of doubt to shooter. Had a spotter said something I would have backed up that call. 

How should I have handled this? 

 

 

good call

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7 hours ago, Shotgun Clay said:

What if it was 169.9?  Thumping a loaded shotgun to reset part of the firing mechanism when it is in a position to send the shot somewhere other than clearly downrange isn't confidence inspiring.

No it's not. I really enjoyed the time I got to shoot with JM Brown and his bunch down in NC. It was a well planned and tightly called match. Guy was DQd for discharging his shotgun over the berm. I thought that was a great local rule. At another match a guy loaded another shell on a slow falling popper and blasted it skyward as he began to move to the next position. The part that bothered me was that he was turned sideways and looking at the peanut gallery as he did it. Not what I'd term safe gun handling, but not against the rules. So make a local rule to prevent behavior that isn't desirable and borderline unsafe. 

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“Muzzle  Muzzle!”   Could/ should have been a first reaction to warn the shooter

 

BUT the “unsafe ness” of a straight up muzzle being “unsafe” should really be reviewed by the rules committee.    Rules say 170 applies,  before during and after stage.   How many times have you seen people moving to the stage or walking back down range where the last gun was a shotgun and the muzzle is carried straight up ( or slightly forward, up range) when shooter goes to unloading table.  Or to their cart!!( seen a call on way to cart before).   

 

We call straight up (or slightly down range) ok in another part of the rules.   Probably one of the safest positions to point the gun, YET we have people dying to call major penalty violations for one of the safest places to point.

 

i understand 170 left and right, but difficult to understand the up or down version being unsafe.   Too many people getting penalized for a very safe action in my opinion

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Howdy Toranado, straight up to and from loading tables has been allowed since as long as I can remember, ("Muzzles Up, please proceed to the unloading table") especially when loading tables are well up range from the line. Straight up and slightly downrange is recommended for common firing lines. Straight up during the stage with a loaded long gun could be a problem either racking the slide or lever, clearing a jamb, moving with shotgun, or resetting inertial triggers. Straight down is where the toes are. Same thing in WB and the 1911, clearing a jamb straight up and it goes "bang" where does the bullet go? Straight down are the toes/feet. When we first started WB trying to clear a 1911 jamb straight up happened more than once, we quickly addressed it in our safety briefing. Maybe a first time warning since a lotta folks are not aware of it. Good Luck:)

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4 hours ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said:

“Muzzle  Muzzle!”   Could/ should have been a first reaction to warn the shooter

Agree

Quote

BUT the “unsafe ness” of a straight up muzzle being “unsafe” should really be reviewed by the rules committee.    Rules say 170 applies,  before during and after stage.   How many times have you seen people moving to the stage or walking back down range where the last gun was a shotgun and the muzzle is carried straight up ( or slightly forward, up range) when shooter goes to unloading table.  Or to their cart!!( seen a call on way to cart before).   

Reviewed and or clarified already. If that call was due to straight up firearm, somebody has some splainin' to do.

Quote

We call straight up (or slightly down range) ok in another part of the rules.   Probably one of the safest positions to point the gun, YET we have people dying to call major penalty violations for one of the safest places to point.

 

i understand 170 left and right, but difficult to understand the up or down version being unsafe.   Too many people getting penalized for a very safe action in my opinion

Very adamantly disagree having known a casualty succumb to a round being fired straight up when the bullet came back down. It can make a very neat hole right in the top of your head. I'm sure several people know of missing toes from pointing straight down. Yeah, that rule needs to stay imho.

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5 hours ago, Toranado, SASS # 58447 said:

“Muzzle  Muzzle!”   Could/ should have been a first reaction to warn the shooter

 

BUT the “unsafe ness” of a straight up muzzle being “unsafe” should really be reviewed by the rules committee.    Rules say 170 applies,  before during and after stage.   How many times have you seen people moving to the stage or walking back down range where the last gun was a shotgun and the muzzle is carried straight up ( or slightly forward, up range) when shooter goes to unloading table.  Or to their cart!!( seen a call on way to cart before).   

 

We call straight up (or slightly down range) ok in another part of the rules.   Probably one of the safest positions to point the gun, YET we have people dying to call major penalty violations for one of the safest places to point.

 

i understand 170 left and right, but difficult to understand the up or down version being unsafe.   Too many people getting penalized for a very safe action in my opinion

With all due respect the rule says

 

"Muzzle direction and muzzle control is important between, before, during, and after shooting a stage. The 170° rule is the backbone of all safe firearm handling and is always in effect." 

 

For clarity it should say the 170 is always in effect while shooting the stage or words to that effect.  Clearly the 170 isn't in effect when you're not shooting.  For example if you're shooting on a single berm set up (not shared firing line) your loading and unloading tables are most likely perpendicular to the firing line, which means when you lay your long guns down on those tables they are also likely perpendicular to the firing line, ie breaking the 170.  When you're leaving the firing line heading to the ULT there is no 170 rule in effect, in some cases there will be people downrange at that point, resetting shotgun targets.  There's no benefit to keeping your gun within the 170 when there are people downrange.

 

If you saw someone get called for breaking the 170 at their cart then you saw a bad call.  At the cart the rule will be not to sweep anyone, the 170 means nothing then.

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If I may opine....   Smacking an SKB to reset it is not only dangerous in the ways people have pointed out in this thread, it is also slow, and it is (potentially) harmful to the gun.  Most are aware that the stock, as it meets the action, is a weak point on SKBs.  The force imparted by whacking the butt stock is more than enough to crack the stock.  In time, that's what will happen.

 

Rather, use the barrel selector on the trigger to switch barrels.  Practice doing it that way.  It is safer, faster, and does no damage to the gun.  

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Doors have jambs. Firearms have malfunctions. 

 

Why must we abandon common sense trying to apply a rule for muzzle control during the engagement of the stage to the transportation of firearms about the stage? There is a lot of administrative gun handling behind the line of fire in cas that is expressly forbidden elsewhere in the shooting sports, but I think they got it right the way it is. 

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6 hours ago, August West, SASS #45079 said:

 

 

Rather, use the barrel selector on the trigger to switch barrels.  Practice doing it that way.  It is safer, faster, and does no damage to the gun.  

This would be a good preferred option IF the mechanism is stock. Some conversions to mechanical reset disable the selector ( in which case you should not have a failure to switch in the first place)

Regards

Gateway Kid

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