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Installed new hammer V springs for Liberty - CZ-USA shotgun - video added


Warden Callaway

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We bought a Liberty hammer double last Wednesday.   It looked as new. It's essentially the same as a CZ-USA Hammer Coach Gun.   But when we took it out and shot it we had failures to fire of about 50%.  I pulled the firing pins and they were clean and looked fine. I pulled the locks and found that the hammer V springs had been "Dremeled" on.  Numerich lists parts for the Liberty but the V springs are out of stock.  We're tying to get a new set through CZ-USA but they are not responding.  

 

Does anyone know of another source for V springs for this Turkish made shotgun?

 

514246501_LibertyandCZcoachgunFeb2019.jpg.321af62afdbfdd3b4a666cf42dcc3f0d.jpg

 

Liberty above CZ-USA Hammer Coach Gun. 

 

208337461_LibertylockspringsFeb2029.jpg.c67b6b8ee57bb268de78ede702ed5ace.jpg

 

Liberty lock behind CZ-USA lock.

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24 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

How close are those springs, to the hammer spring from a '87 lever shotgun?

OLG

 

Not close at all.  The Liberty and CZ-USA spring has a post at the juncture of the legs that stick into the side plate.  The 87 spring is much heavier and opens wider.  The 87 spring hooks over a pin about .25 diamater.  The Library spring hooks over a much smaller stirrup.  

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9 minutes ago, Lead Friend, SASS #53635 said:

I got a pair of the same springs fro CZ last year. Took months and a dozen phone calls and half-a-dozen emails.

 

Yes,  our first impressions dealing with CZ-USA indicates it's going to be a painful process.

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I'd make a set, if it were my gun.   Some flat spring stock from Brownells, then harden and temper using Brownell's instructions.  Or Midway.   In a day and a couple of tries, you would be finished AND have learned to make flat springs.  Only trick is getting the hook beat into the lower end, which is done before hardening.

 

But, would a TTN hammer spring not fit, after refitting the hook end?   Looks fairly close in general shape, and it has the strength that is needed to drive an external hammer......    Those you could get from Cimarron.

 

Good luck, GJ

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37 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I'd make a set, if it were my gun.   Some flat spring stock from Brownells, then harden and temper using Brownell's instructions.  Or Midway.   In a day and a couple of tries, you would be finished AND have learned to make flat springs.  Only trick is getting the hook beat into the lower end, which is done before hardening.

 

But, would a TTN hammer spring not fit, after refitting the hook end?   Looks fairly close in general shape, and it has the strength that is needed to drive an external hammer......    Those you could get from Cimarron.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

You know, I'm a DIY kind of guy. And I have both wire and flat spring stock. And I have made a few springs.  But the complexity of these springs and getting the strength right and getting a durable temper, is beyond my skill level. 

 

I have a Cimarron 1878 to compare the springs but I've tried multiple times over the years to get parts from Cimarron and have not had any luck. 

 

I do see that Taylor's and Company catalog what looks to be the same gun in a plain model and a Wyatt Earp. They don't have parts listed online but may have parts.

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2 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

You know, I'm a DIY kind of guy. And I have both wire and flat spring stock. And I have made a few springs.  But the complexity of these springs and getting the strength right and getting a durable temper, is beyond my skill level. 

 

I have a Cimarron 1878 to compare the springs but I've tried multiple times over the years to get parts from Cimarron and have not had any luck. 

 

I do see that Taylor's and Company catalog what looks to be the same gun in a plain model and a Wyatt Earp. They don't have parts listed online but may have parts.

 

 

Two things. How far off the firing pins are the hammers when rebounded. If it's more than an 1/8th in. you can lower it some for a slightly stronger hit before it rebounds. 

 

Second, how close are the TTN/1878 springs? I have some of those.

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22 minutes ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

If it's more than an 1/8th in. you can lower it some for a slightly stronger hit before it rebounds. 

 

Wouldn't that involve modifying the notches on the tumblers?  

 

I suspect the TTN springs to be different being one is made in China and other in Turkey.  

 

I'm still holding out for a factory replacement.   They've imported this shotgun for many years under several names. And they are still in production.  There has to be some out there.  

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If the hammers don't drop far enough before contacting the other end of the hammer spring (which pushes hammers back up and away from firing pins), it will cause light hits. When your hammers are down, how far is face of hammers from end of firing pins. If more than 3/32˝, you can lower their stopping position by putting a small brass tube around the spring support (see photo). The thicker the tube, the closer the hammers will come to the firing pins. If you can get them a 1/16˝ or so away from the firing pins, your problem will most likely be solved.

RR

Coach shotgun action with sleeve.jpg

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2 hours ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

Second, how close are the TTN/1878 springs? I have some of those.

 

599d18123eef9_CimarronvsColt1878lockAugust2017.jpg.1f556c800de678bd30085cae6a0f3e6a.jpg

 

Here are original Colt 1878 lock over Cimarron 1878 lock.  The spring is much longer than in the Liberty or CZ.

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4 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

The spring is much longer than in the Liberty or CZ.

Which means you have plenty of length to work with!

 

Does the Liberty spring have the same type/diameter of locating pin close to the fold that the TTN spring uses?   If same diameter, that  means maybe pin would not have to be replaced either.

 

Good luck, GJ

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8 hours ago, Roger Rapid said:

If the hammers don't drop far enough before contacting the other end of the hammer spring (which pushes hammers back up and away from firing pins), it will cause light hits. When your hammers are down, how far is face of hammers from end of firing pins. If more than 3/32˝, you can lower their stopping position by putting a small brass tube around the spring support (see photo). The thicker the tube, the closer the hammers will come to the firing pins. If you can get them a 1/16˝ or so away from the firing pins, your problem will most likely be solved.

RR

Coach shotgun action with sleeve.jpg

 

431847972_Libertylockw_springFeb2019.jpg.5a9bfc8c1390332b1a469f6d3edf24d4.jpg

 

I didn't have a tube easy at hand so I put my thinking cap on and found a coil spring that would just slip over the stop stud. Easy enough and nothing that's not reversible. It'll be interesting to see if the hammers have enough rebound inertia to reset in safety notch.  

 

It's uncomfortable cold out and getting colder.  I don't know if I'll get out and shoot it today. 

 

I had no practical way to measure the distance from front of hammer face to firing pin but .050 will interfere when slid between.   My calibrated eye says about .040. So the hammer distance should be within striking distance. 

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Warden Callaway... The spring should work just fine and .040˝-.050˝ is great. You might also want to consider changing out the firing pin springs for lighter springs. The Liberty ones are much too stiff, as is the spring for the break-open lever. The addition of your spring, and lightening the firing pin springs should go a long way to helping you run that shotgun with the lighter hammer springs - i.e., no need to change them.

 

RR

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10 minutes ago, Roger Rapid said:

Warden Callaway... The spring should work just fine and .040˝-.050˝ is great. You might also want to consider changing out the firing pin springs for lighter springs. The Liberty ones are much too stiff, as is the spring for the break-open lever. The addition of your spring, and lightening the firing pin springs should go a long way to helping you run that shotgun with the lighter hammer springs - i.e., no need to change them.

 

RR

 

The firing pin springs are very light.  And also the top lever spring. 

 

This gun was once owned by a cowboy action shooter.  It didn't look altered from the outside - the chambers not funneled, etc. But the hammer springs tell otherwise. 

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The springs arrived from CZ-USA on Thursday afternoon but I didn't pick up our mail until Friday morning.  I installed them Friday afternoon and shot video of the event.  It wasn't difficulty but just took time and patience.  My spring vice is made for much longer springs so I had to improvise.

 

CZ-USA advised that the springs would need fitting and they required a little.   The leg on one spring was a little long so l trimmed it back.   The other required that the post diameter be reduced a little.   It took some time with the diamond file to reduce it to fit. 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

As always-Great video:excl:

May I ask where you bought the spring-clamp?

One trick if the hammers are still to stiff-Leave the hammers cocked for a few weeks.

OLG

 

Probably Track of the Wolf.  

 

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/1038/1/TOOL-VISE

 

Or Dixie Gun Works

 

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/index/page/product/product_id/3836/category_id/354/category_chain/350,351,354/product_name/MT0102+Mainspring+Vise

 

 

 

 

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