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Advice needed - Finding the right ammo


Ramblin Gambler

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I'm looking to get more accuracy out of my hunting rifles (An M77 and a Mod 70; both are 30-06).  I don't handload yet, so I know there's only so much I can do, but I figure it's reasonable to expect there to be a factory load somewhere that each of my rifles will shoot well.  I bought some sample ammo and did some trials, but the results were not what I expected and now I think I'm missing something.  I was operating under the idea that bullet weight was the first important thing to find.  So I bought 3 different weights (all 150, 165, and 180) of the same kind of bullet from 4 manufacturers (remington, hornady, winchester, and federal).  When I say same type, I mean they were all fusion, or core-lokt, or whatever to try to control for bullet type and powder.  I expected that I would find one weight consistently shot tighter groups in each of the brands.  I did not.  Instead I found the weight that won was sort of all over the place.  For the most part whichever weight bullet I shot first seemed to do better, but there were exceptions to that. 

 

For the first 12 targets from the ruger, I shot smallest bullet to biggest, and for the next 12 biggest to smallest.  I've only shot 12 targets with the winchester so far, and it went big to small.  It might turn out that the winchester really does like bigger bullets because the groups opened up substantially.  One brand went from less than 1" with 180 gr, to 6" with 150, and that wasn't just because of a flyer.  The worst I saw from the M77 was in the neighborhood 1" to 3". 

 

I ran a snake down the barrel between strings and shot another gun while the barrels cooled.  I didn't have a thermometer or anything scientific, I just waited till the barrel didn't feel warm to the touch.  A couple of times I sprayed some canned air down the barrel because the range was closing and I was in a hurry.  I shot 4 shot groups and I'm only paying attention to the closest 3 because I don't think I'm good enough to shoot that many shots with no flyers. 

 

I tried to read about this on the interwebs, but all the articles I could find were focused on handloaders.  That was of no use to me except that I noticed none of them talked about bullet selection.  Almost as if the bullet itself didn't matter.  That's what drove me to find some folks with experience.  If bullet weight doesn't matter, is there another way to narrow down the loads so I don't have to buy samples of all 492,683 bullets that are currently loaded for the 30-06? 

 

Thanks for reading this, and thanks in advance for any advice you have to offer. 

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Slug your bores.  Get bullets to match.  I can't recall off the top of my head the relationship with jacketed bullets.  With cast they should be about .001" larger than the groove diameter.  Might could be you will need different bullets for each rifle.

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My model 70 always did better with 180 grain corelock 1 inch or less. I went to 150 nosler and got 2 inch group. Either did well enough inside 200 yards for good shot. Nosler was better performance on expansion and transfer of energy. Hot barrel can change flight as well. My 243 really shows hit barrel. There are alot of other variables as well including head space bullet depth neck tension bullet weight brand powder charge brand and which powder number even brass brand length cut too and even primers. Best advice I can give is if you want to reload start with a load that is try to get as close to the best factory load that your rifle likes. Each rifle can like different loads. 

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What range were you shooting at?  A sub 1" group at 100 yards is pretty good.  Were you bench resting the guns?  If you are getting groups jumping around, you may also want to double check your scope and mounts to make sure it isn't moving in the mount.

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The barrels ROT will tell you where to start with bullet weight.

Expecting sub 1 moa, 3-5 shot groups out of stock production/field grade rifle is not realistic.

Your barrel is fouling out from the bullet jacket.

Bet none of the rifles have bedded actions either.

Also-Experiment with the tension of the action screws to the stock.

When group shooting for record-Load 1 rnd at a time.

OLG

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Lumpy’s right. Figure out your barrel twist. Best cheap way is to take a cleaning rod and put a dry mop on it. 30 caliber, of course.  Put a mark lengthwise on the rod up near the handle so you can see when the rod makes a complete single turn. Push the mop into the bore. When the mop is fully into the bore put a mark on the cleaning rod where the barrel crown meets the rod. See where your reference mark is up by your handle then push the rod in until your mark ends up back where it was when you started(one full rotation) now put another mark on your rod where the crown of the barrel meets the rod. Pull the rod out and measure between your marks on the cleaning rod. 

You will probably have 10 or 12 inches. That would be a 1:10 or 1:12 twist. The higher the number for the second number the lower the bullet weight for stability...normally.

 

If you Google 30.06 twist rates vs ballet weight you will find lots of info on this subject. Steer clear of the Anal analytics of the benchrestians. They’ll drive you mad.

 

I always look at rifles for longer ranges like this. I shoot for the first round down the pipe. If it’s a center hit every time with a clean cool bore who flippin’ cares how it groups?

 

 

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First thing I would do is start with the rifles. Really scrub the bores until a clean patch comes out. Next I definitely would glass bed them both. I also would float the barrel. Then I would start shooting. I really can't or won't recommend types of ammo as I reload (have for 60 years). My experience has been that every rifle likes a different kind/brand of ammo, you just have to find it. When I reload I stick to the same bullet and vary the powder type & charge until I find what shoots best.

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As far as factory loads are concerned, I found Federal was the most accurate and consistent.

This was following a totally unscientific "trial" of 5 different makes and dealt with .30-06 and .308 in 150 and 180 grain.

FYI: my police service only allows Federal in duty guns; 9mm and .40

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16 hours ago, Country Wildman said:

My model 70 always did better with 180 grain corelock 1 inch or less.

 

That was the first round I shot out of the mod 70, and it gave the best group.  I haven't tried a winchester powerpoint yet.  I'm sorta expecting it to do better since the gun's a winchester. 

 

To answer some of the other questions. 

I don't reload.  I'm a ways away from that and when I do start 30-06 will be between 3rd and 5th on the list.  probably closer to 5th because it's not straight walled.  45 colt and 45-70 will definitely come first. 

 

Distance was 100 yards.  I know some of the groups were pretty dang good, and if I can get them consistently, I'll be happy.  But in this phase I want to see what's possible.  If I find a bullet that puts 3 in the same hole, I'll stop and try to find a case from the same lot.  I have 2 or 3 groups where they're all touching, but it's just barely.  I think my 2 tightest groups were in the .5" and .7" range (measuring center to center). 

 

The M77 is bedded and floated.  It's also got a timiney trigger which I think is too light.  It measures 2 lbs.  Unfortunately this trigger isn't easily adjustable, but even at 2 lbs it's a ton better than what I had before.  It was measuring 5-6 lbs and stacked up. 

 

The mod 70 is a pre 64 that I just bought last weekend.  So I don't know if it's bedded.  I could check to see if the barrel is floating, I just haven't looked yet.  I gues sit wouldn't mess up the value of the gun if I did that.  This gun has a good patina on it already.  The Mod 70 trigger is around 3 lbs.  I feel like that's a better trigger for hunting.  The scope on this one is a weaver K4, so the scope could be better but it's good enough for a backup hunting rifle. 

 

I'm not sure if I'm shooting from benchrest, but I am seated and resting the rifle on a bench.  I am not locking it into a vise or anything like that.  No sandbags either because I don't have any available. 

 

I'm sticking with standard velocity bullets for now under the theory that they aren't as hard on the gun.  I figure the main advantage of higher velocity is that it doesn't drop as much.  But I'm not afraid to use kentucky windage, so that's of limited use to me.  Whatever bullet I wind up with, I'm going to run tests and find out where it shoots at various ranges. 

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2 lbs is 'lite' for a field trigger. Fine for bench shooting.

Go to the Timney Site and follow the directions.

https://timneytriggers.com/

X2 on Federal rifle ammo overall.

When hunting-Your CBS(Cold Bore Shot)is the most critical.

BTW-Best to shoot 5 shot groups to see the real truth of the rifle and load.

OLG

 

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"I'm not sure if I'm shooting from benchrest, but I am seated and resting the rifle on a bench.  I am not locking it into a vise or anything like that.  No sandbags either because I don't have any available."

 

First learn how to shoot from a bench. There is more to it than just resting the rifle on the bags and pulling the trigger. Do not rest the rifle on the bench. Get some bags and learn how to use them.  Are the action screws tight? Are the scope mount screws all tight.  Are the scopes good? Are the bores copper fouled, badly pitted, or rusted? Are the muzzle crowns damaged? Check these things and then try shooting groups again,  most modern factory ammo will shoot fine but some will be better in you rifles.

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On 2/15/2019 at 8:25 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Also-Experiment with the tension of the action screws to the stock.

When group shooting for record-Load 1 rnd at a time.

 

2 people have mentioned action screws.  I don't see anything I'm willing to mess with that I would consider an action screw.  IE a screw on the bolt or back of the barrel.  So what are y'all talking about?  Secondly, what does it mean to experiment with them?  Run me through a simple experiment.  How tight or loose can they get?   I think I can torque them if that's what's required.  Would something like that affect all loads the same way, or would it be for fine tuning the best load I wind up with?  Is it kinda like having a BOSS on your rifle? 

 

Second, why load 1 at a time?

 

1 hour ago, T.J. Bones SASS# 75616 said:

First learn how to shoot from a bench. There is more to it than just resting the rifle on the bags and pulling the trigger. Do not rest the rifle on the bench.

 

Well I don't benchrest shoot with this gun, I'm shooting like I try to shoot in the field.  The gun isn't really resting on the bench, it's resting on me, and I'm pressed up against the bench for stability.  My front hand is on the front swivel and I flex it or flatten it as needed for fine elevation adjustment. 

 

Now I do have a 45-70 that's a pure target rifle and I could stand to learn how to properly benchrest with that one.  But that's for another time.  I've given up on getting the accuracy I want from it until I start reloading.  My club's long range used to go to 300 yards and I was all over the steel with my factory loads.  We're about to go out to 600 and eventually 1000.  I think I'll be lucky to get any hits at those ranges unless the targets get bigger. 

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On 2/16/2019 at 10:36 AM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

2 lbs is 'lite' for a field trigger. Fine for bench shooting.

Go to the Timney Site and follow the directions.

https://timneytriggers.com/

 

the smith who installed it said I have to take the trigger out to adjust and when I do, to be careful that I don't break the safety.  That's beyond my comfort level.  Before next season I'm going to take it back to him and have him adjust it.  But for finding a load I figured it was good enough. 

 

What do you suggest for a field trigger?  Most of what I read online says 3-3.5 lb range.  At this point I'll probably get him to match the winchester since I like how it feels. 

 

 

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Just now, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

the smith who installed it said I have to take the trigger out to adjust and when I do, to be careful that I don't break the safety.  That's beyond my comfort level.  Before next season I'm going to take it back to him and have him adjust it.  But for finding a load I figured it was good enough. 

 

What do you suggest for a field trigger?  Most of what I read online says 3-3.5 lb range.  At this point I'll probably get him to match the winchester since I like how it feels. 

 

 

Find another 'smith!

Call Timney.

You have to remove the barreled action to adjust the trigger on a Timney. NOT a big deal!

3-3 1/4lb pull is fine.

OLG

 

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18 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Look for screws near the trigger/mag area on the bottom of the stock.

Do you have an adjustable in/lb torque driver?

Post pics of the rifles in question.

OLG

 

How many will be on each rifle? 

 

I assume you want pics of the underside and I haven't taken any like that.  I'm working today so I can't get them now. 

 

I do have adjustable torque drivers.  I have a couple different sizes to choose from so I can probably find one with the right range.  The only one I've used so far is the big one that I toque lug nuts with.  The rest just sit in the drawer all lonely and unloved. 

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Should be 2 screws on average.

They might be slot head or Phillips or even Allen head.

The picture in the link, is just an example of what to look for.......

http://www.savageshooters.com/content.php?128-Savage-Action-Lengths

 

OLG

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1041319111_Riflebellies1.thumb.jpg.c7e376295d7736d032d25efa364c5466.jpg

 

Got a picture with the magazine floor plates released too.  I assume that screw under them is one of them you're talking about. I don't see that second picture, but it says it was uploaded .... so it oughta be here somewhere.  So the model 70 on the right looks like it has 1 more screw, is that one of them you're talking about too? 

 

 

 

  

Rifle Bellies 2.jpg

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Lift the mag cover on the Ruger and see if there's a screw near the hinge.

Being that these are wood stocks, and I'll bet neither are pillar bedded for the action screws, there ain't much that can be done.

What does your torque driver say they are at now in in/lbs?

I would put a wrench to all of the scope base screws, and ring screws and ring mount screws.

Can you slide a dollar bill down the barrel channel?

When you bench shoot these-Put support under the forearm. NOT the exposed barrel.

OLG

 

 

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17 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Lift the mag cover on the Ruger and see if there's a screw near the hinge.

Being that these are wood stocks, and I'll bet neither are pillar bedded for the action screws, there ain't much that can be done. 

What does your torque driver say they are at now in in/lbs? 

I would put a wrench to all of the scope base screws, and ring screws and ring mount screws.

Can you slide a dollar bill down the barrel channel? 

When you bench shoot these-Put support under the forearm. NOT the exposed barrel.

OLG 

  

 

 

Yes there is.  It's at an angle and looks like a PITA to get to.  I hope it's not very tight. 

 

Why you keep talkin mean about my gun?  Yes the ruger has pillars.  I already told you it was bedded and floated.  The way he talked about the pillars I thought it was part of the bedding so I didn't mention it separately.  The winchester is still completely unknown. 

 

I've never used a torque driver to check the current torque settings.  I'm guessing you just slowly increase the setting until the screw moves?  If I ever some free time I'll try it out.  Crossing my fingers that I'll have this weekend free. 

 

That's how I shoot these guns both at the range and in the field.  But I guess I will take that advice when I get back to shooting my sharps.  I always put the sticks as far out as I can because the front sight seems more steady like that. 

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You want both screws at the same torque on most rifles. 

Not many wood stocked rifles have pillars in the action screws.

Your Sharps, and thin barreled bolt guns are not the same when it comes to support placement.

OLG

 

 

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If you are getting 1" groups at 100yds with 180 grain bullets in a hunting rifle stay with it.  Even the 1 to 3 inch groups are worthy of a hunting rifle but could be imoroved.  Remember, you don't take game with groups,  one shot out of a cold barrel is the standard to look for.  Now if you are shooting bench rest for score it is a new ball game.

 

That's my story and I am sticking with it.

Blackfoot

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