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1 hour ago, Blast Masterson said:

I'm on the fence about this. Things in the SHB can overlap, but at a different time.

 

The reason you can not have two loaded guns out at the same time is that it gives an advantage.

ie. you can not be still shooting pistol# 1 as your drawing pistol# 2.

 

My question is 'How do you recover, and when?'. If your shooting a rifle and shoot 9 shots and re-stage it on a prop, can you pick it back up and shoot the last round before you engage the next gun sequence? Sure. In this OP, you miscount. You start for pistol# 2 but re-stage or re-holster #2 (whichever is allowed), then pick up the last round in pistol# 1. None of this gives the advantage noted above.  If #2 is not cocked  (which can not be un-cocked if you did), why can't you re-stage it?

 

If you cock #2 and shoot 5, you can not go back to #1 and finish up.

If you holster #1 with round in gun, it's a miss. (This is an incorrect statement. You may holster and redraw pistols as necessary to complete the string. It isn't a miss until you use another firearm type or complete the stage.)

If you draw #2 and then shoot the last round in #1, your out of cat.

You can't have two guns out as traditionalist as you shoot one handed.

A Duelist can have can have two guns out at the same time, but you can't draw #2 till your finished with #1. If you don't try to shoot the forgotten last round in #1, it's a miss. 

 

It's a matter of timing. If you forgot round five in #1 and draw and engage the second pistol, it's a miss. It is not a 'P' for out of category because you have no intention to shoot that last round in #1. The miss came first. We do not 'stack' penalties. It's a miss or it's a 'P'. Depends how the shooter plays it out.

 

If the TO is shouting "One more" after you go for #2 (why else would he be yelling?), then the shooter is being given a way to recover. If it is illegal to recover, it's interference if the shooter is enticed  to re-stage #2 and finish up #1.

 

Just my take on it...

 

 

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Thank you Mr. Branchwater for finding it. I spent all day looking with no avail. This was the first time I read this when it was first posted. It has come up again later. Click on the arrow on the upper right or the 14 replies.

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

Edited by Major B. S. Walker
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While PWB stated it had been clarified at WR in 2017 it, according to everyone reading the rule book, it hasn't entered the rule book!

Ike

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(This is an incorrect statement. You may holster and redraw pistols as necessary to complete the string. It isn't a miss until you use another firearm type or complete the stage.)

 

Duelist:

o At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once. (Such as shooting Gunfighter)

 

Lets stick with the OP:

Shooter draws right pistol and shoots four rounds and starts to holster hammer down on spent case as he draws the left pistol. Right pistol had not made leather yet and left pistol has cleared leather.

 

My opinion on the OP was that if the shooter lost count, and if no attempt to shoot #1 again it would be a miss not a 'P'. In this case the next action of the shooter was to holster both pistols and move on.

As I said, this is about timing of sequence. Trying to make up a miss can create a 'P'.

 

I'll wait and see on the call. This is just my opinion, just as all the other posts here are. I'm not trying to make the rule.

The shooter was not trying to make up the last round in #1, until told to do so. Having two loaded pistols out was not his intent, rather the result of loosing count.

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1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

So, I witnessed this a couple of weeks ago with a DD.  Both revolvers staged.  Shooter picks up and begins shooting LH gun while picking up RH gun keeping the lower edge of the muzzle in contact with prop.  Technically this is not in hand based on the definition but clearly an advantage.  Where does breaking contact with the prop apply?  I called a P.

 

1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

When the gun is no longer touching the prop.  A P wasn't the correct call, it's a no call.

 

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You called wrong.

 

An advantage?

 

1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Indeed.   Thanks for adding that.

 

..........Widderborg

 

 

 

Man, I hate to disagree with y'all. You're about the only ones ever agree with me. I would have called it to. A staged revolver has to be laid flat on the table. Also, if you look at Branchwater's cited pwb post he said the penalty would have kicked in when the first revolver was cocked. It was the same situation with a DD shooter having one gun resting on the prop. It wasn't set back down or holstered before. 

If you click on the arrow in the corner it will take you to the post.

Edited by Tennessee williams
Clarity

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8 minutes ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

While PWB stated it had been clarified at WR in 2017 it, according to everyone reading the rule book, it hasn't entered the rule book!

Ike

There are a plethora of clarifications that are not in the rule book.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

If you go to the rules clarification page the TG minutes from EOT 2017 are not available. If you click on the link your get a page not found error.

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For me if it isn't in the rulebook then it isn't a rule, clarification or not. How is everyone to know about this clarification of it doesn't exist anywhere but in a Forum string?

Maybe PWB can clarify the clarification so that it is clear to us all!

Ike

Edited by irish ike, SASS #43615

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Just now, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

For me if it isn't in the rulebook then it isn't a rule, clarification or not. How is everyone to know about this clarification of it doesn't exist anywhere but in a Forum string?

And to some people you can put all the rules in big bold print on a poster board 2ft in front of them and they still wouldn't be a rule.

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

 

 

 

Man, I hate to disagree with y'all. You're about the only ones ever agree with me. I would have called it to. A staged revolver has to be laid flat on the table. Also, if you look at Branchwater's cited pwb post he said the penalty would have kicked in when the first revolver was cocked. It was the same situation with a DD shooter having one gun resting on the prop. It wasn't set back down or holstered before. 

If you click on the arrow in the corner it will take you to the post.

They were staged flat... Once the timer goes beep, lift away so long as that muzzle stayed in contact with the prop.

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21 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

There are a plethora of clarifications that are not in the rule book.

 

 

This is more than a clarification.  This is a change.  Clarify means the original meaning wasn't clear and the confusion needs to be cleared up.  In this case the original meaning was very clear: you can't have two loaded guns in hand unless you're a gunfighter or B-Western, nothing was said about whether they were cocked or not.  Making that rule only apply if one gun is cocked is a change to the original rule.  

 

Just from a common sense perspective, how many people read that thread and saw that post?  How many people might be reasonably expected in a similar situation to look in the rule book and conclude that having two loaded pistols in hand is a violation?  Having read what the rule book currently says how many people are going to go on the Wire and look for clarification to a rule that is written pretty clearly?

 

So hypothetically that happens at a local club, I'm a spotter and say it's a no call, neither revolver was cocked.  The TO pulls out his current copy of the SHB and says nope, it says right here there's a penalty.  I'm supposed to say go on the wire and look for a post from PWB from March of 2017 and you'll see that I'm right?

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

When the gun is no longer touching the prop.  A P wasn't the correct call, it's a no call.

do that often...as long as muzzle is touching table/prop, no P, but as DD, shooter has to be careful that he/she does not lift that muzzle from surface until fifth shot of first revolver is fired.

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Now we need a bigger rule book.;) Only 37 days till SPRING and this winter seems to just DRAG ALONG.  :FlagAm:

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21 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

They were staged flat... Once the timer goes beep, lift away so long as that muzzle stayed in contact with the prop.

 

8 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

do that often...as long as muzzle is touching table/prop, no P, but as DD, shooter has to be careful that he/she does not lift that muzzle from surface until fifth shot of first revolver is fired.

Well it aint the first time I've been wrong and it wont be the last. I would have sworn that since it wasn't staged anymore and it wasn't in leather that it was in hand. I know some people tried to tell me I couldn't pick my loaded rifle off the table while I was shooting my pistol but that's not the case. You can and it doesn't have to be touching. Did I read  @Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 's post on pwb's ruling wrong? I sure didn't realize I could pick them both up as long as one was touching the table. Can I draw them both and rest one on the table while I shoot the other?

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3 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

Dont think you had to take a miss either. You should be able to draw a revolver, fire it once and holster. Then draw the 2nd and fire it and holster and go back and forth since the revolver string goes by both of them. May make a difference if targets specified 1st and 2nd revolver but I dont think so.

No doubt in that second or so when I drawed , cocked, and fired right gun WHILE HOLDING THE COCKED LEFT, I did indeed have two loaded guns out at same time so OOC=P.  If I had just left right gun holstered and went to unloading table with loaded round in it,  I would have received a miss for loaded round in gun ( hammer on empty).  All according to how written and you might be right that I could have finished with right gun after firing left, I just do not remember now how it was written...I believe there were five targets and the start was on #2 (Pea Patch sweep, I believe it was called).  This probably where I  "derailed" in thinking.  Even if continuous sweep, idea of finishing with the one live round left in holstered right gun would have possibly been legal.

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1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

Well it aint the first time I've been wrong and it wont be the last. I would have sworn that since it wasn't staged anymore and it wasn't in leather that it was in hand. I know some people tried to tell me I couldn't pick my loaded rifle off the table while I was shooting my pistol but that's not the case. You can and it doesn't have to be touching. Did I read  @Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 's post on pwb's ruling wrong? I sure didn't realize I could pick them both up as long as one was touching the table. Can I draw them both and rest one on the table while I shoot the other?

No.

 

But you can pull it almost out... Keep the muzzle in the mouth of the holster

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46 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

This is more than a clarification.  This is a change.  Clarify means the original meaning wasn't clear and the confusion needs to be cleared up.  In this case the original meaning was very clear: you can't have two loaded guns in hand unless you're a gunfighter or B-Western, nothing was said about whether they were cocked or not.  Making that rule only apply if one gun is cocked is a change to the original rule.  

 

Just from a common sense perspective, how many people read that thread and saw that post?  How many people might be reasonably expected in a similar situation to look in the rule book and conclude that having two loaded pistols in hand is a violation?  Having read what the rule book currently says how many people are going to go on the Wire and look for clarification to a rule that is written pretty clearly?

 

So hypothetically that happens at a local club, I'm a spotter and say it's a no call, neither revolver was cocked.  The TO pulls out his current copy of the SHB and says nope, it says right here there's a penalty.  I'm supposed to say go on the wire and look for a post from PWB from March of 2017 and you'll see that I'm right?

 

if you read the rule book, the section detailing that you cannot have more than one loaded pistol in hand at the same time only applies to duelists. Effectively, folks shooting in the traditional style cannot actively shoot with more than one loaded in hand at a time. therefore, they wouldn't have one cocked and the other in the other hand shooting in the traditional, two-handed, style. That may be why it is a clarification.

 

I'm in agreement with you in that sometimes these things are hard to keep up with.

 

However, this issue also reiterates the fact that there could be a perceived problem in how we handle these things

 

Quoting

 

This clarification was reiterated at the WR TG meeting

 

 how many TGs were present at the winter range TG meeting?

 

And of those present, how many of those took it to the clubs?

 

From SASS

 

 

The Territorial Governor not only represents his constituents to the national body, but also represents the national body to the membership. As with any good politician, the Governor may have personal reservations regarding a position adopted by the Governors, but is always in a position to support and defend "the party line".

 

so, is your TG effectively reporting these issues to your club? Are we doing it at the national level?

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

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2 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

I'm in agreement with you in that sometimes these things are hard to keep up with.

 

However, this issue also reiterates the fact that there could be a perceived problem in how we handle these things

 

Quoting

 

This clarification was reiterated at the WR TG meeting

 

 how many TGs were present at the winter range TG meeting?

 

And of those present, how many of those took it to the clubs?

 

From SASS

 

 

The Territorial Governor not only represents his constituents to the national body, but also represents the national body to the membership. As with any good politician, the Governor may have personal reservations regarding a position adopted by the Governors, but is always in a position to support and defend "the party line".

 

so, is your TG effectively reporting these issues to your club? Are we doing it at the national level?

That 'clarification' wasn't reported to any of the local clubs I shoot at.

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3 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

You would think that clarification should be in the rule book given it happened almost two years ago.

something to think about as well...They still have not released the corrected, revised SHB, either...

 

 

Edited by Branchwater Jack SASS #88854

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While we are on the subject of assessing the wrong call on the shooter who 'lifted but left the muzzle touching the prop',

it was ONLY up to the spotter(s) to "assist" the TO in making the call on this.

It was up to the TO to actually make the call official in scoring..... SHB page 23.

 

Both were wrong.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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It's another rule that should go away.  Why is it ok for a two handed shooter have two loaded guns out but not a duelist?   Just simplify things and make it fair.  Either neither can or both can.  I'm in the camp where  if it's not in the rule book then it's not enforceable.  

 

  But what do I know I shoot the only category that's banned from shooting as fast as possible.  Lol

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I read all this and it just re-enforces my decision not to go after a black pin. One rule book, yet it's on page 3 of discussing what's right or not.

 

BS

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1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

I read all this and it just re-enforces my decision not to go after a black pin. One rule book, yet it's on page 3 of discussing what's right or not.

 

BS

Oh please, we can get 8 pages plus discussing toilet paper...

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We're well on the way. 

 

BS

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This is not unlike the rifle hammer at half cock discussion a few weeks ago. It was discussed and was supposedly headed to ROC.Which then would come back to the TG's for a vote. It hasn't. But several commenters thought it was passed and were applying it!.

If it ain't in the rule book, it doesn't exist.

Ike

Edited by irish ike, SASS #43615

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

No.

 

But you can pull it almost out... Keep the muzzle in the mouth of the holster

Yessir. I missread the other post. They didnt start with them on the table. 

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I guess the question now is, is one a P, is one a no call, are both a P because it's not in the rule book or does your toilet paper have a smooth and a textured side and if it does which do you prefer.

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Reading the OP, the shooter had two loaded pistols "OUT and IN hand".  Current rule book, with no undocumented clarifications, makes it shooting out of category and so a P.

IKe"

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Reading the OP, the shooter had two loaded pistols "OUT and IN hand".  Current rule book, with no undocumented clarifications, makes it shooting out of category and so a P.

IKe"

A B Western shooter comes to the firing line to shoot a stage. Can they wear their hat draped on their back dangling from the stampede string around their neck?

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Actually, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, dispute or say Branchwater, but hats period aren't required by SASS rules. So yeah the Bw shooter can do that.

Ike

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1 minute ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Actually, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove, dispute or say Branchwater, but hats period aren't required by SASS rules. So yeah the Bw shooter can do that.

Ike

Shooters in the B Western category are not required to wear hats? Is that your final answer?

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23 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

A B Western shooter comes to the firing line to shoot a stage. Can they wear their hat draped on their back dangling from the stampede string around their neck?

Must be worn on head.

 

Randy

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1 minute ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

Must be worn on head.

 

Randy

Okay, now we're headed down the right track.

 

Where does that answer come from?

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