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Major B. S. Walker

WTC

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Pistols are first to begin the stage. Pistol sequence is not important. Shooter starts behind a table. Shooter shoots pistols traditional.

 

(A) Shooter draws right pistol and shoots four rounds and starts to holster hammer down on spent case as he draws the left pistol. Right pistol had not made leather yet and left pistol has cleared leather. TO is yelling one more at the same time all this is taking place. Shooter then stages left un-cocked pistol on prop then cocks and shoots fifth round of first pistol, holsters then picks up left pistol off prop and shoots five rounds all correctly.

 

(B) Shooter draws right pistol and shoots four rounds and starts to holster hammer down on spent case as he draws the left pistol. Right pistol had not made leather yet and left pistol has cleared leather. TO is yelling one more at the same time all this is taking place. Shooter then re-holsters left un-cocked pistol then cocks and shoots  fifth round of first pistol, holsters then draws left pistol from holster and shoots five rounds all correctly.

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Were BOTH pistols ever cocked at the same time?

 

#1:   I 'think' its a No Call.

 

#2:  No Call

 

..........Widder

 

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I thought there were only certain categories (gunfighter for sure) where you can have two loaded pistols out in hands at the same time, cocked or not.

 

Edited by Hellbender
clarified what I meant
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18 minutes ago, Hellbender said:

I thought there were only certain categories (gunfighter for sure) where you can have two loaded pistols out in hands at the same time, cocked or not.

 

you have until the second pistol is cocked before incurring the P for out of category,,,    in you first question,, a P for not reholstering,, second one no call

 

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13 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

you have until the second pistol is cocked before incurring the P for out of category,,,    in you first question,, a P for not reholstering,, second one no call

 

Assuming both pistols weren't cocked at the same time, why the P ?

Edited by Yusta B.

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B. Next shooter please.

A. I am uncertain as to where this would be a no call but I tend to think it would be because grounded on the table is a safe position for the revolver. Afterall, sometimes we shoot a stage with them "staged" on the table. The question would be, if a shooter (traditionalist or duelist)decided to, after the buzzer place both of his pistols on the table and pick one up and fire it and holster then pick the other up and fire and holster without penalty. Without referencing the shb, it seems the 2 firearm rule refers to "in hand".

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I thought  only Gunfighter can have two loaded pistols out of holsters at the same time. Shooting out of category.?

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Waiting to hear.  I thought you could only have one gun out of holster at a time, unless gunfighter. Unless stage required tabling gun instead of holstering.   GW

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I think the condition "both COCKED" is the key words on it being a No Call.

 

Think I'll go to the SHB or RO book and find the rule that governs this.

 

..........Widder

 

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17 minutes ago, Caboose said:

I thought  only Gunfighter can have two loaded pistols out of holsters at the same time. Shooting out of category.?

 

3 minutes ago, G W Wade said:

Waiting to hear.  I thought you could only have one gun out of holster at a time, unless gunfighter. Unless stage required tabling gun instead of holstering.   GW

 

PW has ruled that penalty doesn't apply unless both pistols are cocked at the same time.

 

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2 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I don't know how PWB stays sober.:ph34r:

Like Widder and some others ..... he's a BORG !

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1 hour ago, Major B. S. Walker said:

Pistols are first to begin the stage. Pistol sequence is not important. Shooter starts behind a table. Shooter shoots pistols traditional.

 

(A) Shooter draws right pistol and shoots four rounds and starts to holster hammer down on spent case as he draws the left pistol. Right pistol had not made leather yet and left pistol has cleared leather. TO is yelling one more at the same time all this is taking place. Shooter then stages left un-cocked pistol on prop then cocks and shoots fifth round of first pistol, holsters then picks up left pistol off prop and shoots five rounds all correctly.

 

(B) Shooter draws right pistol and shoots four rounds and starts to holster hammer down on spent case as he draws the left pistol. Right pistol had not made leather yet and left pistol has cleared leather. TO is yelling one more at the same time all this is taking place. Shooter then re-holsters left un-cocked pistol then cocks and shoots  fifth round of first pistol, holsters then draws left pistol from holster and shoots five rounds all correctly.

The current SHB doesn't say anything about being cocked, just loaded, so unless Gunfighter or B-Western, Procedural for shooting out of category.

If this occurred at a match, and somebody checked the book, that's what it says. I'm usually wrong on these things, but I don't think the competitor's appeal, "PWB said it was OK" would hold sway. Half of them would say, "Who's PWB?" :lol:

Edited by J Bar Binks, #47015
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9 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I don't know how PWB stays sober.:ph34r:

 

5 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Like Widder and some others ..... he's a BORG !

 

PWB's Borg lube is probably Pepto Bismul.......... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

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1 minute ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

 

PWB's Borg lube is probably Pepto Bismul.......... :lol:

 

..........Widder

 

And in VERY  liberal doses !

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10 minutes ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

The current SHB doesn't say anything about being cocked, just loaded, so unless Gunfighter or B-Western, Procedural for shooting out of category.

If this occurred at a match, and somebody checked the book, that's what it says. I'm usually wrong on these things, but I don't think the competitor's appeal, "PWB said it was OK" would hold sway. Half of them would say, "Who's PWB?" :lol:

 

Yep - it should really state this in the SHB if it's the ROC decision.

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19 minutes ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

The current SHB doesn't say anything about being cocked, just loaded, so unless Gunfighter or B-Western, Procedural for shooting out of category.

If this occurred at a match, and somebody checked the book, that's what it says. I'm usually wrong on these things, but I don't think the competitor's appeal, "PWB said it was OK" would hold sway. Half of them would say, "Who's PWB?" :lol:

That's why I have my phone at the shoots. So I can show the clarifications. There is a link on the sass site. Also, I don't know how much stock I'd put in someones interpretation of the rules if they had to ask who PWB is.

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58 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

B. Next shooter please.

A. I am uncertain as to where this would be a no call but I tend to think it would be because grounded on the table is a safe position for the revolver. Afterall, sometimes we shoot a stage with them "staged" on the table. The question would be, if a shooter (traditionalist or duelist)decided to, after the buzzer place both of his pistols on the table and pick one up and fire it and holster then pick the other up and fire and holster without penalty. Without referencing the shb, it seems the 2 firearm rule refers to "in hand".

Can a traditional shooter pull both pistols and set one down on the table before shooting the other? Then holster that one and shoot the other one?

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Can a traditional shooter pull both pistols and set one down on the table before shooting the other? Then holster that one and shoot the other one?

 

I think I remember this being discussed much earlier.  A Traditional Shooter may stage their pistol as above if it is the last firearm to be fired in the scenario and re-holstered at the end of the string.

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I was going to reply, "What's to interpret? As it's right there in black & white", but oddly enough, there no longer seems to be any language in the age-based descriptions about having two loaded revolvers in hand at the same time, nor does it say anymore that a B-Western shooter can. The only language left addressing this appears to be in Duelist and Gunfighter categories only.

The vast majority of Cowboy Action shooters I know don't frequent the SASS Wire, and likely wouldn't have any idea who "PWB" is. :mellow:

 

Duelist: At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once.

Gunfighter: Gunfighter style category competitors are allowed two loaded revolvers “in hand” at the same time.

 

This would imply that ONLY Gunfighters can have two loaded revolvers in hand at the same time, but, as Duelist specifically disallows it, I suppose it could be argued that it is OK in age-based categories and B-Western. Not by me, but the current wording, or lack thereof, leaves a lot of room for interpretation now. :wacko::wacko::wacko:

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Open Age Categories & Age Based Categories, "Revolvers maybe shot in any SASS shooting style - Except Gunfighter." 

 

Duelist / Double Duelist, "At no time shall a competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once."

 

Gunfighter Style, "Gunfighter style competitors are allowed two loaded revolvers "in hand" at the same time.

 

Shooters Handbook, pages 6 & 7.

 

If a traditional, duelist or double duelist style shooter has two loaded revolvers in hand a the same time, they have violated the rules unless the revolvers are required by stage instructions to be staged out of holsters & shooter is staging revolvers.. Only gunfighter or a B-Western category competitor shooting gunfighter may have two load guns in hand at the same time.

Edited by Keystone, SASS # 47578
clarity
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I was searching for "loaded" or "two loaded", so missed the first and last paragraphs you quoted.

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10 minutes ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

Open Age Categories & Age Based Categories, "Revolvers maybe shot in any SASS shooting style - Except Gunfighter." 

 

Duelist / Double Duelist, "At no time shall a competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once."

 

Gunfighter Style, "Gunfighter style competitors are allowed two loaded revolvers "in hand" at the same time.

 

Shooters Handbook, pages 6 & 7.

 

If a traditional, duelist or double duelist style shooter has two loaded revolvers in hand a the same time, they have violated the rules unless the revolvers are required by stage instructions to be staged out of holsters. Only gunfighter or a B-Western category competitor shooting gunfighter may have two load guns in hand at the same time.

This would be “shooting out of category” per the above reason posted by Keystone. 

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No, I know you have until one pistol is cocked to remedy the two guns in hand situation. We just covered it a week or two ago. My question is, does placing one on the table remedy the situation just as if putting it in the holster. The rule says "two pistols in hand" not one in hand and one on the table or holster because we do that all the time. 

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45 minutes ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said:

Open Age Categories & Age Based Categories, "Revolvers maybe shot in any SASS shooting style - Except Gunfighter." 

 

Duelist / Double Duelist, "At no time shall a competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once."

 

Gunfighter Style, "Gunfighter style competitors are allowed two loaded revolvers "in hand" at the same time.

 

Shooters Handbook, pages 6 & 7.

 

If a traditional, duelist or double duelist style shooter has two loaded revolvers in hand a the same time, they have violated the rules unless the revolvers are required by stage instructions to be staged out of holsters & shooter is staging revolvers.. Only gunfighter or a B-Western category competitor shooting gunfighter may have two load guns in hand at the same time.

That penalty does not kick in until one of them is cocked.

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Until someone takes a couple minutes to edit the online manual, it would be difficult for an MD or competitor to say, "Well they said it was OK on the SASS Wire".

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I'd judge this a contentious part of the rules that need to be fixed and PUBLISHED as soon as it can be done.  When existing rules are quite clear about not having two LOADED handguns out at the same time, excluding Gunfighter style.  Changing things to add "until cocked" without officially notifying the entire membership makes a mess of things.  Just MHO.

 

Good luck, GJ

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6 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I'd judge this a contentious part of the rules that need to be fixed and PUBLISHED as soon as it can be done.  When existing rules are quite clear about not having two LOADED handguns out at the same time, excluding Gunfighter style.  Changing things to add "until cocked" without officially notifying the entire membership makes a mess of things.  Just MHO.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

I agree.

But the only reason I mentioned something about 'cocked' is that recently, something was posted on the Wire

concerning pistols in the 'cocked' condition.    And talking with another Cowboy shooter on the phone this

evening, he mentioned it was in reference to both pistols being out of the holsters at the same time

 

I'm eager to find out exactly how that was referenced.

 

..........Widder

 

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17 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I agree.

But the only reason I mentioned something about 'cocked' is that recently, something was posted on the Wire

concerning pistols in the 'cocked' condition.    And talking with another Cowboy shooter on the phone this

evening, he mentioned it was in reference to both pistols being out of the holsters at the same time

 

I'm eager to find out exactly how that was referenced.

 

..........Widder

 

The reference is - TWO REVOLVERS IN HAND.

 

The shooter has until the FIRST revolver is cocked to correct the situation. Once one revolver is cocked the shooter cannot have two in hand. (Assuming the shooter is shooting other than gunfighter style)

Look to the shooters manual to reference when a revolver can safely leave a shooters hand. This applies to all styles of shooting.

When shooting revolvers, Shooters may safely  ground a revolver at any time. Any style of shooting allows for safely holstering a revolver (except gunfighter style) at any time during the string. Revolvers are only required to be holstered prior to the next firearm being used. 

Edited by Ace_of_Hearts
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Thanks ACE.

 

Question:  Given the situation in the OP, the 1st revolver was shot 4 times and the hammer was down on an

empty case.    Because it wasn't 'cocked',  would that be a 'No Call' when that 2nd pistol is drawn and

reholstered BEFORE the 1st pistol was cocked for the 5th shot?

 

..........Widder

 

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2 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Thanks ACE.

 

Question:  Given the situation in the OP, the 1st revolver was shot 4 times and the hammer was down on an

empty case.    Because it wasn't 'cocked',  would that be a 'No Call' when that 2nd pistol is drawn and

reholstered BEFORE the 1st pistol was cocked for the 5th shot?

 

..........Widder

 

Not if the first revolver is still loaded and in hand.

 

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Imagine any other sport where the rule book wasn't the final say...

 

If the rules change, why in the world would you try to spread the new rule(s) by word of mouth, or resort to searching an online discussion board, instead of fixing the rule book? If a law changes, you certainly don't have any argument that it changed until it's actually been changed, such as at [State] Code Annotated, Title X, Chapter XX, Part X, Section XX, subsection xxx, paragraph x, effective 1March2019.

 

It's ridiculous to have roughly half the people saying, "The rule book says...", and the other half arguing, "Yeah, but someone on the rules committee said..."

 

If it's changed, take a couple minutes and edit the rule book.

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Just need to read the book. Duelist rules say it best (but this applies to ALL categories that cannot shoot Gunfighter style): "At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once." And then Gunfighter Style rules go on to say "Gunfighter style category competitors are allowed two loaded revolver "in hand" at the same time."  Was the OP shooting in a category that allowed "Gunfighter style"?, then it's a P for shooting out of category with the first pistol still loaded and not in the holster yet (in hand) and the second pistol fully loaded and cleared leather (yep, in hand).

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