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.45 Cowboy Special on Lee single stage


Marshal Hangtree

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I will soon have a set of .45C SAA clones and want to start shooting .45 Cowboy Special in them.  I'm currently reloading .44-40 on my Lee single stage press using APP.

 

What would be a good load for the .45CS using APP, and which dies should I look for?  My current dies are Redding with a Lee roll crimp die in .44-40.

 

Thanks y'all,

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As for dies,  I think most people end up with a mix.  I use RCBS carbide sizing die for 45 Colt. I load on a Dillon 550b and use a Lyman 55 black powder measure on top of a Lee 45Colt powder/expander die.  Then an RCBS lock out die in station 3 and RCBS 45ACP ROLL crimp die to seat and crimp.

 

https://www.grafs.com/catalog/product/productId/13396

 

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On single stage I used RCBS 45 Colt sizer and ACP bell and seating die. Those particular dies are older and allow you to ROLL crimp when properly adjusted!

I Use 45 ACP Dillon dies with Colt shell plate on Dillon SDB.

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10 minutes ago, Captain Clark said:

On single stage I used RCBS 45 Colt sizer and ACP bell and seating die. Those particular dies are older and allow you to ROLL crimp when properly adjusted!

I Use 45 ACP Dillon dies with Colt shell plate on Dillon SDB.

+1, I use my 45 colt sizing die. But, haven't been able to roll crimp with the 45acp crimp die. Tightened all the way it still makes a very heavy taper crimp. For now I have just backed it off to make a gentle taper crimp on my SDB. Maybe my die is too old to do the roll crimp!? It's from the 90's

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Best is a mix.  45 Colt sizing die (do NOT use an ACP sizing die).  45 Auto Rim Bell and Seat and a 45 Auto Rim profile crimp die.  The Auto Rim dies will turn down to perfectly adjust to the Cowboy 45 Special Case.

 

The load I like with APP is 3f to the bullet base with 165Gr RNFP (Scarlett or Badman)

 

Just as an explanation, an ACP sizing die will buy a slight taper on the case and increase blow-by.  A good roll crimp is necessary for good consistent ignition.  If you wish, you may also reduce the APP and substitute Cream-0-Wheat as filler.  Breakfast filler of Champions  :rolleyes:

 

PS:  I FORGOT to include I use Redding 45 Auto Rim dies.

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Here is what Adirondack Jack had published on his 45CS Website.

--Dawg

 

Question: What about loading dies?

Updated 12/15/06 Cowboy .45 Special is designed to use ordinary "off the shelf" dies. Using a .45 Colt shell plate and sizing die, and expander and seat/crimp dies from a .45 ACP or autorim die set. While any ACP/Autorim dies will work, along with a .45 Colt shell plate, the very best results to date have been achieved using Hornady New Dimension .45 caliber dies no. 546554. Note Hornady uses the same dies for .45 Colt, ACP, Autorim, and win mag. They produce a proper roll crimp, and use a sliding bullet guide that aids in seating even very short bullets straight. The sizing die is also a bit larger than typical ACP dies, which provides proper bullet tension for .452-4 cast bullets, and requires less effort to size and expand. This makes the press run smoother, and works brass less as well. Personally, I only neck size fired cases, adjusting the sizer so it resizes the part of the brass where the bullet seats, but not the lower aspect. Question: What dies will work? If you already have .45 ACP dies, and don't care to get Hornady dies, your ACP dies will work, together with your .45 Colt shell plate. BUT, there are ways to make "better" ammo by using a bit more intelligent die setup. Since we are loading for .45 COLT chambers, which are notoriously roomy (the old SAAMI numbers are sloppy, and chambers cut to SAAMI max are prone to burnt powder blow-by) we need to think about the actual dimensions of our cases if the goal is to limit blow-by, especially at typical CAS levels. The Cowboy .45 Special has much less blow-by at middle of the road CAS loads, but if you like em reallly light, or load with BP or subs, read on.

 

One way to help reduce blow-by at low velocity levels is to use a .45 COLT sizer die instead of the slightly smaller ACP sizing die. Even better is what is known as "neck sizing" our fired brass. When a case is fired it expands and "bounces" back part way, ending up a few thousanths bigger than "resized" brass. Since we are working with very roomy chambers, we can leave the brass in the "as fired" state, sizing ONLY the case neck where the bullet seats, and sizing that only as much as needed to get decent neck tension on the bullet. Typical pistol dies are designed to "full length size", but can be set up to partially resize or "neck size". To do this, take a .45 Colt sizing die and adjust it so that the decapping pin JUST knocks out the spent primer. Note how close the die mouth is to the shell plate. Most often it is still going to resize more than half of the case. Now, loosen the collet holding the decapping pin, and using a small drift, push the decapping pin about .150 below the top of the die such that only the bottom portion of the collet holds the pin, and retighten the collet. Now adjust the die until it JUST knocks out the old primer, and note how much of the case is up inside the die. Likely you can get the die adjusted to a point where ONLY the case mouth is resized (the area that grabs the bullet) and no further. Now, as long as you can reliably knock out old primers and you're resizing the top .200 in. or so of the case neck, you've done all the sizing CAS brass needs. Load a few fired, neck sized cases with your favorite bullets and make sure they chamber ok in your pistols (mine do with ease) and compare the diameter of the loaded once fired, neck sized cases to those which have been full length resized. You'll likely see about .005 or .006 inch diameter difference at the point of the bullet base, which means when you next fire them, these neck sized rounds will seal much better during firing, leave little powder residue in the chambers, and still extract just fine. This is especially important as we load for minimum recoil with light bullets. Cowboy .45 Special develops more pressure than .45 Colt at a given velocity and that means LESS blow-by at modest levels, but if ya push the lower limits of velocity, it's still possible to get smoky cases. Neck sizing with a .45 COLT sizing die will reduce the smoky cases.

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Thanks y'all.  So:

1)  .45 Colt sizing die

2) .45 Auto Rim bell & seat die

3) .45 Auto Rim roll crimp die

 

Dawg:

 

Thanks for the tip on the Hornady 546554  set.  That should take care of all the necessary dies without having to buy any separate roll crimp die.

 

Now, how about suggestions on bullets for the .45 CS?

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I use the Lee 45 Colt shell holder and the Lee 4 die set for 45 acp. Same dimensions as my loads for the 1911. No changes except for the shell holder. 

1.3 cc Dipper with a 200 gr .452 RNFP bullet.  No filler.  Waimeas (Outlaw) are good and soft. Summers Enterprises  45 200gr .452 RNFP are a little harder..I run them for the 1911 also with 6 gr Unique for WB. Same ogive as a 230 gr hard ball and no hangups in the mag.  8 gr Unique in 45 Colt nickel if I need a smokeless load for rifle. If I run out of big lube 200 gr for the BP I can melt out the smokeless lube and hand lube BP lube in a pinch. One bullet for all loads. Miroku 73, Rossi 92, OMV Bisleys, SAM 1911 for Wild Bunch. 

IMG_20190204_192926.jpg

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More from AJ:

Question: What about light bullets in Cowboy .45 Special?

How light can we go and still get good accuracy? Cowboy .45 Special works very well with bullets as light as 150 grains (maybe even less), and will run accurately and consistently at velocities well below those needed with .45 Colt using any similar bullet.

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5 minutes ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

Question: What about light bullets in Cowboy .45 Special?

How light can we go and still get good accuracy? Cowboy .45 Special works very well with bullets as light as 150 grains (maybe even less), and will run accurately and consistently at velocities well below those needed with .45 Colt using any similar bullet.

 

Round balls work pretty dang good in Cwby 45's, what do they weigh 90 gr?

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At one time AJ had some extremely light bullets that he was casting for the CS brass and I think I might even still have a few samples stashed back somewhere.  Seems like he decided that the process was far to slow to sell the bulltes but there was a bit of conversation on possibly offering the molds and they were even a nightmare (had to be in ten parts and only worked after muttering a special incantation)????  I swear my memory is just to bad to guess at any more.  All my old cowboy stuff is still rusting away in storage but I will try and look if the dust and rust dawnt send me to the hospita againl!!!

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Coffinmaker has some of those.

Or used to if he used them all up

I believe AJ called them "Barnstormer" bullets

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They were called barnstormer bullets and they were 130 grain. They looked very intensive to cast. The heavier the bullet the sweeter the PF, but at this point, you're likely interested in POI/POA. 

The Hornady dies are very nice. I just happened to have them as my .45 ACP dies. They roll crimp like a champion. I used them for lead in a 625 S&W extensively prior to SASS. 

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22 hours ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

I will soon have a set of .45C SAA clones and want to start shooting .45 Cowboy Special in them.  I'm currently reloading .44-40 on my Lee single stage press using APP.

 

What would be a good load for the .45CS using APP, and which dies should I look for?  My current dies are Redding with a Lee roll crimp die in .44-40.

 

Thanks y'all,

 

I use the 45acp dies, with the 45colt case shell on my LEE press.  No problems.

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13 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

IIRC-Didn't the source for .45CS cases 'dry-up'? :huh:

OLG

No, Starline is producing them now as a catalog item.

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32 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

That's great news!

TNX,

OLG

Free shipping as well!

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Cowboy-Special/

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2 hours ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

Do I need the roll crimp die, or is the taper crimp that comes with .45 ACP OK?

The Hornady Custom seating Die is a taper crimp at first and then when you torque it down it becomes a roll crimp as it is also a .45 Auto Rim die. 

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Light bullets are available from

Badman- 160 Gr cast

Rimrock- 150 cast

Both work well in pistol loadings from 1st hand experience

 

Bang & Clang- The 180 gr coated  perform exceptionally well in rifle loads !

There are other suppliers as well. These 3 are good CAS supporters, give them a try ;)

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Like everyone else, I've tried various combinations of die sets.  I've settled on the Hornady Custom Grade 45 Auto/AR/Win die set.part number 546554.  Works for me.

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My Lee 45 ACP die set will roll crimp if you crank it down. I've used it for about 10 yrs.

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Those bullets that were being hand cast by AJ went far past hollow base and were actually similar to a lead sabot (almost sharp around the bottom edge).  Not familiar with all the proper terms BUT these are an almost flat point with a small crimp groove just below the flat and very close under this is  one small lube groove.   At some point I will soon weigh one and post the results.  I have a photo showing the top and bottom BUT not sure what the quality would look like if I can get it on line???  My guess is that these were a bit lighter than roundballs? 

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On 2/6/2019 at 1:00 PM, Slowhand Bob, 24229 said:

Those bullets that were being hand cast by AJ went far past hollow base and were actually similar to a lead sabot (almost sharp around the bottom edge).  Not familiar with all the proper terms BUT these are an almost flat point with a small crimp groove just below the flat and very close under this is  one small lube groove.   At some point I will soon weigh one and post the results.  I have a photo showing the top and bottom BUT not sure what the quality would look like if I can get it on line???  My guess is that these were a bit lighter than roundballs? 

Howdy Slowhand and Dawg

 

I happen to know the location of AJ's Barnstormer mould and also know that AJ's willing to part with it.

 

AJ had it produced to function in a Master Caster and as Bob mentioned. It doesn't require a incantation to work but consistent timing of the pour and refill along with temperature control and she hums along happily,making piles of the little 125 gr. Barnstormers aka the shuttlecock.

 

It was produced by a talented fellow name of Eric ,made of brass and below I will include his link.

 

 

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/

 

This discussion reminds me I need to give AJ a shout,I miss not seeing him often but still gab for hours on the wireless telegraph.       Adios   Sgt. Jake

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Thanks for the help and I hope the poor quality will still allow for the details to show.  The name shuttlecock is very appropriate as a description of how deep the bottom cavity is.  I considered AJ to be a very talented person and a great idea guy, those items he created or helped in the creation of were often very unique to our sport. 

 

For some reason it seems that I remember one of the larger mold makers offering a 12ga slug mold that was similar but perhaps simpler, without grooves or nose shaping beyond a round nose????  

Barnstormer.jpg.42aba7efbb753ef73df5e5ead44613a9.jpg

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Thanks for the heads-up Sgt. Jake.

I use Dick Dastardly's EPP-UG with its big ole lube groove.

--Dawg

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http://www.biglube.com/

 

Dick's a good guy, and this is a good bullet.

--Dawg

 

 

EPP-UG.jpg

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Dick Dastardly 's web site.

 

http://www.biglube.com/

8 minutes ago, Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 said:

http://www.biglube.com/

 

Dick's a good guy.

--Dawg

I'll second that sentiment.

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I'll chime in again.  I spent many long hours communing with AJ when he was developing the Cowboy 45 Special and the "Barnstormer" bullet.  I was in development of the "45 Squirt" at the same time.  I'd like to reiterate, 45 ACP die sets are NOT a good choice.  Yes, they will work, but are not optimum.  Again, a 45 ACP resize will give you a slightly tapered case and increase blow-by.  The seater is no big deal.  You just have to get the bullet properly seated.  The 45 ACP taper crimp is also NOT a good idea.  Depending on your load level, you really need the roll crimp to get optimum ignition and burn.  Best crimp die I found was the Redding Profile Crimp Die.  Your ammo, your choice.

 

Now.  The "Barnstormer" bullet is/was the absolute DREAM projectile for the C45S combo.  It weighs a nominal 130Gr yet is long enough to well grip the lands and is superbly accurate.  A round ball weighs a nominal 148Gr and the EPP UG 45 weighs 150Gr.  This means the barnstormer enables folks wanting to compete with the .38 crowd to be even up when it comes to recoil and muzzle flip.  I still have a small supply I have carefully hoarded for 3 day matches when I need to shoot Suppositories pin my converted handguns.  They are a dream to shoot.

 

With the C45S in rifles, you will need a custom carrier block for Toggle Link Rifles.  Available from "The Smith Shop."  You will also need to Roll Crimp to insure against "Turtles" as well as promote good ignition.  For the rifle I shoot 160Gr or 165Gr bullets.  That bullet does NOT stabilize well for longer ranges.  They ring steel all day at CAS ranges.  My Trappers (custom built) will only load 10 rounds with 160Gr bullets.  If I have to "reach out" I use 200Gr bullets in my 19 inch Henry.

 

As an additional, since I shoot BP and Subs (APP) I ALSO anneal my cases to eliminate blow-by.  With annealed cases, at the end of a three day match, my 45 carriers are as clean as a 44-40.

 

Would that could score one of the molds AJ had bade for the Barnstormer and then find someone to cast them commercially.  I could well use another couple of THOUSAND(s)

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