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This came to mind yesterday at our cool temp match.  Folks were shedding the coats when they shot and then put them back on as soon as the cleared unloading table.

 

Shooter comes to line, lays his long guns down and then removes his coat and throws it over the window frame at end of building.

Rifle and pistols:  fine, no problems

Shotgun:  uses all his ammo and still has one KD standing.  

Lays open and clear shotgun down

goes to his coat and removes two shotgun shells from a pocket

returns to shotgun, loads and shoots KD which finally goes down

 

Coat was placed on firing line, he didn't have to leave firing line to retreve shells.

 

Your thoughts?

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I think he needs a new shotgun belt;)

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I am learning toward no call. Here is what I see on page 28 of the SHB the question is was it staged in an approved manner. Based on your description of the events I would say no call

 

  • Illegally acquired ammunition is any ammunition not carried to the line and/or

    staged by the shooter in an approved manner.

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Fine by me - no advantage gained time wise for sure.

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Carrying ammo to the firing line in your pockets is an approved manner, so I would say no call.

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SHB: Vers 23.2 pg 3 - Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person, in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, pouch, holster, pocket, or be safely staged as required by stage instructions.

 

Since all ammo used must come from the shooter's person, or staged per stage instructions, that would be 10 seconds worth of penalty.  5 seconds for "Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition".  pg 23

Edited by McCandless
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7 minutes ago, McCandless said:

SHB: Vers 23.2 pg 3 - Ammunition required for loading/reloading during the course of any stage must be carried on the shooter’s person, in a bandoleer, cartridge/shot shell belt loop, pouch, holster, pocket, or be safely staged as required by stage instructions.

 

Since all ammo used must come from the shooter's person, or staged per stage instructions, that would be 10 seconds worth of penalty.  5 seconds for "Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition".  pg 23

It was carried to the line on the shooter's person, in his pocket.  I guess it comes down to whether you consider putting your coat down on a table 'staging the shotgun shells'.  I'm sure PWB will chip in at some point, but right now I'm leaning towards no penalty.  There's certainly no competitive advantage to what was done.

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Fine...and then thank him for coming on a cold day.

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Weird?? :huh:

I'm leaning..

Yes the ammo was carried to the line in an approved manner.. :)

Had his coat on..

but.. :mellow:

It was not staged by an approved manner as per scenario  once he took his coat off.. :unsure:

5 second penalty for each round used..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' fingers crossed.. :rolleyes:

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4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Fine...and then thank him for coming on a cold day.

 

^   this.

 

 

..........Widder

 

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I will wait for PWB before I rant about overly-punitive rule interpretations. I hope the rant isn't necessary; however, I fear it may be. :o ;)

 

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53 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

It was carried to the line on the shooter's person, in his pocket.  I guess it comes down to whether you consider putting your coat down on a table 'staging the shotgun shells'.  I'm sure PWB will chip in at some point, but right now I'm leaning towards no penalty.  There's certainly no competitive advantage to what was done.

 

On a frozen day, I'm not saying I'd actually call it.  Probably I'd just laugh.  Just putting out there what the rules actually say.  There's a lot of stuff that goes on in various circumstances that we wouldn't and couldn't do in a major match.  I probably wouldn't be allowed to use my .45-70 as my main match rifle like I sometimes do at a local match, (properly downloaded to cowboy .45 Colt velocities).  Slow but fun to do now and then.  :P 

 

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No different than a shooter taking two shells out of his pocket and laying them on the window sill to use during the stage. Stage instructions didn't say he could stage shotgun shells so, illegally acquired ammo 2 misses and P.

This ain't T ball.

Ike

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

No different than a shooter taking two shells out of his pocket and laying them on the window sill to use during the stage. Stage instructions didn't say he could stage shotgun shells so, illegally acquired ammo 2 misses and P.

This ain't T ball.

Ike

And it ain't the Superbowl either...

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1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I will wait for PWB before I rant about overly-punitive rule interpretations. I hope the rant isn't necessary; however, I fear it may be. :o ;)

 

In that case, being forewarned, I'll refrain from posting anything "official" until this thread reaches page 4 (or the ROC comes to a consensus, whichever happens first)

;)

 

except for: IMO..."Winter Rules" in effect...apply as needed.

:ph34r:

 

 

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1 hour ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

In that case, being forewarned, I'll refrain from posting anything "official" until this thread reaches page 4 (or the ROC comes to a consensus, whichever happens first)

;)

 

except for: IMO..."Winter Rules" in effect...apply as needed.

:ph34r:

 

 

 

In my opinion, when the ROC can't come to a 'consensus',  that means to me that the rule ain't

exactly 'clear' and in those circumstances, the shooter should benefit from a 'No Call'.

 

I ain't saying that there isn't a penalty against it but rather the circumstance that may warrant the

penalty are not clearly defined to make an immediate call.

 

The shooter apparently carried the ammo to the line in a legal manner.....in his pocket.

Instead of staging the ammo, he staged his pocket..... :lol::lol:

Would this be any different than someone who had their SG belt break and they laid their belt on the

table to use?

 

PLEASE NOTE:  this comment was posted to help assist this thread make 4 pages..... ;)

and to help keep PWB entertained until the Super Bowl comes on tonight.

 

..........Widder

 

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12 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

PLEASE NOTE:  this comment was posted to help assist this thread make 4 pages..... ;)

and to help keep PWB entertained until the Super Bowl comes on tonight.

 

..........Widder

 

Yeah, right Widder - like PWB NEEDS more entertainment ! :o  :D:D:D Too funny .......,,

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WOW it's amazing how many WTC's are out there...in this case I would say a no call...the rules for our game are easily applied in straight forward situations, in grey areas  not so easy without consultation to achieve the correct outcome.

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

In my opinion, when the ROC can't come to a 'consensus',  that means to me that the rule ain't

exactly 'clear' and in those circumstances, the shooter should benefit from a 'No Call'.

...

...and to help keep PWB entertained until the Super Bowl comes on tonight.

 

.........Widder

 

FWIW - The question hasn't been presented to the ROC for discussion...yet.

;)

 

...and what is this "Super Bowl" of which you speak??

:blink:
:ph34r:

Edited by PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L
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3 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

FWIW - The question hasn't been presented to the ROC for discussion...yet.

;)

 

...and what is this "Super Bowl" of which you speak??

:blink:
:ph34r:

It's what  most call "the  big game  " as "Superbowl" is owned by  the  NFL and  using it without  paying  for  the  privilege  can  cost you  a  lawsuit . 

 

Just  ranting  to  get to  page  4.

 

Hope  this  helps . 

 

CS  

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I wouldn't want to make the call on the shooter either.. :mellow:

Hey.. It's cold out.. Do the best ya can..

Let it go.. :) It's just a monthly.. :huh:

 

But...

We've been told and scolded many times here on the wire..

Rules are rules..

Make the call..

So the shooter can learn by their mistakes..

 

Let's say this happened at E.O.T??

The shooter is in  1st. Place?? 

Would you make the correct call then??

 

Rance ;)

Just sayin' :huh:

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How unsafe was the action? Shooter did not leave the line without going through the unloading table.

 

Also, from p. 4 of the SHB (bold is mine), "Any ammo carried to the line in an illegal/unapproved manner that is actually used for stage reloads falls under the 'Use of illegally acquired ammunition' penalties."

 

I think that, if the ammo was not "carried to the line in an illegal/unapproved manner," it is legal for use. After all, if you load your SG at the wrong time, you can pull out the shell, set it down, then use it at the appropriate time.

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11 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

The correct and only call in this situation is

 

What?

 

I'm with Rance on this one.

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SHB pg 26/27 "... or rounds safely placed onto a prop from their original loading
area (his jacket [pocket) may be recovered and used. 
- Illegally acquired ammunition is any ammunition not carried to the line and/or
staged by the shooter in an approved manner.
 

He carried it to the line, staged the coat on the firing line... What's the prob?

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Ingenuity.

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Furthermore, from p. 28, SHB, "Dropped rounds or rounds safely placed onto a prop from their original loading area may be recovered and used. In any case of recovery of a dropped or safely placed round must be performed carefully as to not create a loss of muzzle control."

 

I say the ammo was carried to the line legally and safely placed onto a prop.

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3 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Ingenuity.

 

& persistence & determination  Bravo !!

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

The correct and only call in this situation is

 

Me thinks TN Williams has run out of ink in his computer.

;)

 

..........Widder

 

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In order to help this get to page four...the rules are super jacked up if you can't make the call...on the spot. Looking forward to the ROC getting to the bottom of the coat shotshell caper. If only I could count how many times I have pulled shotshells out of a coat while hunting...off the ground. 

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2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

The correct and only call in this situation is

 

44 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Me thinks TN Williams has run out of ink in his computer.

;)

 

..........Widder

 

Me thinks he's agreeing with me - nothing = no call!

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I'm just an innocent bystander helping this get to page 4 B)

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I wouldn't have remembered I even had shells in my pocket.

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