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8mm Mauser vs 30-06


Ramblin Gambler

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I was in a pawn shop today and saw a rifle that i thought was a 30-06 but they said was an 8mm Mauser.  I suspect the guy who used to own it thought it was an 8mm and fired 8mm through it regularly.  I want to tap some of the knowledge we have around here and see if anyone knows what would happen if you fed a 30-06 a steady diet of 8mm. 

 

More details below: 

 

I'm pretty sure the rifle is an early Remington model 30.  For those not familiar with that gun, after WW1 when Remington was done making the P17 pattern enfields, they used the leftover parts and tooling to make a new sporting rifle, the mod 30.  I say it was an early one because the bolt and safety had military markings on it (a flaming bomb and an "E" for eddystone).  There were no markings telling the model or the caliber that I could see.  They might have been under the scope mounts, but I think the early rifles might not have been marked at all.  Maybe since they only came in 30-06, there was no reason to mark them.  I haven't seen any proof of this but it makes sense and this is the second one I've seen that wasn't marked.  This rifle also cocked on closing like the P17, and not on opening like most model 30's. 

 

Anyway, this rifle was marked as a model 98 in 8mm mauser on the tag.  I asked why they thought that and was told that's what the guy who sold it to them said.  I wish I'd taken pictures because it was most certainly not an M98.  But I got to wondering if it might have been rechambered to 8mm mauser.  So I came back with a 30 cal bore gauge and a set of 30-06 go/nogo gauges.  If it was really 8mm, the bore should have swallowed the bore gauge.  It didn't.  The bore measured around .3010 or .3005.  The same as my other 30-06 barrels.  Then I tried the go and nogo gauges and couldn't get the bolt closed on either one.  If I understand the dimensions of the 2 rounds correctly, that would be expected from 30-06 gauges in an 8mm mauser chamber.  The thing is, it looked to me like it wasn't closing because the gauge was going in wompy jawed.  I have forster gauges and they're kind of short.  This is a controlled feed bolt, so you have to get the gauge into the groove and under the extractor while it's feeding or the bolt will never close completely.  I got it about halfway closed before it hung up and I couldn't ease it in any further.  I had a similar situation with my mod 70 (also a controlled feed bolt) but was able to push the gauge down and it went into place.  If I just dropped the gauge into the chamber and tried to close the bolt it got much closer, but I couldn't get it under the extractor. 

 

So right now I'm wondering if the steady diet of 8mm has caused a ring to form like what you get in a .357 if you always shoot 38 special.  Either that or I need to do it right and remove the extractor like my gunsmith friend has told me in the past.  Even if I knew how to do that, the pawn shop probably wouldn't like it. 

 

This same pawn shop had a colt M1892 Army revolver that they had marked as a 38 special.  It SHOULD be a 38 long colt unless it's been altered.  I want to rescue that gun from them, but it's currently not working and they have it priced as if it was. 

 

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First.....there is no way it was a Mauser M98, their bolt cocked on opening (like the 03/03A3 Springfields). Bolt cocking on closing is classic 1917 Enfield, along with the big steel ears on the back of the receiver that protected the rear sight. These (along with the military sight) were probably removed so a scope base could be attached there. I am not aware of any M17 being chambered for 8mm, there were some .303 that were made and sold to the British.

 

I agree with grenadier, but with out seeing the gun, would be difficult to tell what's going on with it. Sounds like the pawn shop doesn't know squat about guns!

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I used to love going into pawn shops, but now days they seem to be filled with inexperienced morons that think they know everything, and everything on their side of the counter is worth double its weight in gold but if you have it wanting to do horse trading its not worth anything.

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8 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

I was in a pawn shop today and saw a rifle that i thought was a 30-06 but they said was an 8mm Mauser.  I suspect the guy who used to own it thought it was an 8mm and fired 8mm through it regularly.  I want to tap some of the knowledge we have around here and see if anyone knows what would happen if you fed a 30-06 a steady diet of 8mm. 

 

More details below: 

 

I'm pretty sure the rifle is an early Remington model 30.  For those not familiar with that gun, after WW1 when Remington was done making the P17 pattern enfields, they used the leftover parts and tooling to make a new sporting rifle, the mod 30.  I say it was an early one because the bolt and safety had military markings on it (a flaming bomb and an "E" for eddystone).  There were no markings telling the model or the caliber that I could see.  They might have been under the scope mounts, but I think the early rifles might not have been marked at all.  Maybe since they only came in 30-06, there was no reason to mark them.  I haven't seen any proof of this but it makes sense and this is the second one I've seen that wasn't marked.  This rifle also cocked on closing like the P17, and not on opening like most model 30's. 

 

Anyway, this rifle was marked as a model 98 in 8mm mauser on the tag.  I asked why they thought that and was told that's what the guy who sold it to them said.  I wish I'd taken pictures because it was most certainly not an M98.  But I got to wondering if it might have been rechambered to 8mm mauser.  So I came back with a 30 cal bore gauge and a set of 30-06 go/nogo gauges.  If it was really 8mm, the bore should have swallowed the bore gauge.  It didn't.  The bore measured around .3010 or .3005.  The same as my other 30-06 barrels.  Then I tried the go and nogo gauges and couldn't get the bolt closed on either one.  If I understand the dimensions of the 2 rounds correctly, that would be expected from 30-06 gauges in an 8mm mauser chamber.  The thing is, it looked to me like it wasn't closing because the gauge was going in wompy jawed.  I have forster gauges and they're kind of short.  This is a controlled feed bolt, so you have to get the gauge into the groove and under the extractor while it's feeding or the bolt will never close completely.  I got it about halfway closed before it hung up and I couldn't ease it in any further.  I had a similar situation with my mod 70 (also a controlled feed bolt) but was able to push the gauge down and it went into place.  If I just dropped the gauge into the chamber and tried to close the bolt it got much closer, but I couldn't get it under the extractor. 

 

So right now I'm wondering if the steady diet of 8mm has caused a ring to form like what you get in a .357 if you always shoot 38 special.  Either that or I need to do it right and remove the extractor like my gunsmith friend has told me in the past.  Even if I knew how to do that, the pawn shop probably wouldn't like it. 

 

This same pawn shop had a colt M1892 Army revolver that they had marked as a 38 special.  It SHOULD be a 38 long colt unless it's been altered.  I want to rescue that gun from them, but it's currently not working and they have it priced as if it was. 

 

 

Running a .324 diameter bullet through a .308 diameter barrel would almost certainly blow up the gun.

 

And the pawnshop knows nothing about guns.

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I've read in a few places online that you can safely shoot 8mm in a 30-06 because the 8mm US commercial loads are loaded to very low pressures, and as you can see from subdeacon joe's picture, the 8mm mauser is much shorter.  I'd like to see the fired 8mm brass from this gun.  It must have come out looking like a straightwall case.  In all stories I found the rifle was fine afterwards, a couple even reported that the groups shrunk after the incident.  But I found no references to what would happen if you did it on a regular basis. 

 

I've also read that PO Ackley and the NRA used to advise that you can shoot oversized bullets through a bore with no problem if the chamber matched the cartridge.  For instance, recut the chamber but don't mess with the bore.  As long as the brass sealed, the bullet would simply extrude through the barrel. 

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2 hours ago, Chantry said:

 

Running a .324 diameter bullet through a .308 diameter barrel would almost certainly blow up the gun.

 

I don't think so. It would, of course, depend on the gun.

 

But, after WW2, when ammo for the 7.7 Jap was quite hard to find and very expensive when you did, a common thing was to run an aught six reamer down a Type 99's chamber, giving you a 30/06 with a .311 bore. Plenty good enough accuracy for "minute of deer".

 

There are cases on record where this was done to Type 38s, because "you can do this with an Arisaka". And people shot 30/06. Down that 0.264 barrel.

 

Not often, but they did it.

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That rifle was probably chambered for .30 Remington, not 30/06.  Remington made a lot of them.  

I suspect that the guy who pawned it had never shot it and did not have a clue as to what he had, so he made something up to tell the pawnbroker.

 

Duffield

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About that revolver:  The 38 Long Colt originally used a heeled bullet that was the same diameter as the outside of the case.  It was bored straight through, and the barrel was bored and rifled to match.  I THINK the bore diameter was .357 and groove diameter was around .381, but am not sure of those measurements.

Anyway, you can chamber a .357 magnum cartridge in those old Colts, but firing one in it is a really bad idea.

 

Duffield

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14 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

I was in a pawn shop today and saw a rifle that i thought was a 30-06 but they said was an 8mm Mauser.  I suspect the guy who used to own it thought it was an 8mm and fired 8mm through it regularly.  I want to tap some of the knowledge we have around here and see if anyone knows what would happen if you fed a 30-06 a steady diet of 8mm. 

 

More details below: 

 

I'm pretty sure the rifle is an early Remington model 30.  For those not familiar with that gun, after WW1 when Remington was done making the P17 pattern enfields, they used the leftover parts and tooling to make a new sporting rifle, the mod 30.  I say it was an early one because the bolt and safety had military markings on it (a flaming bomb and an "E" for eddystone).  There were no markings telling the model or the caliber that I could see.  They might have been under the scope mounts, but I think the early rifles might not have been marked at all.  Maybe since they only came in 30-06, there was no reason to mark them.  I haven't seen any proof of this but it makes sense and this is the second one I've seen that wasn't marked.  This rifle also cocked on closing like the P17, and not on opening like most model 30's. 

 

Anyway, this rifle was marked as a model 98 in 8mm mauser on the tag.  I asked why they thought that and was told that's what the guy who sold it to them said.  I wish I'd taken pictures because it was most certainly not an M98.  But I got to wondering if it might have been rechambered to 8mm mauser.  So I came back with a 30 cal bore gauge and a set of 30-06 go/nogo gauges.  If it was really 8mm, the bore should have swallowed the bore gauge.  It didn't.  The bore measured around .3010 or .3005.  The same as my other 30-06 barrels.  Then I tried the go and nogo gauges and couldn't get the bolt closed on either one.  If I understand the dimensions of the 2 rounds correctly, that would be expected from 30-06 gauges in an 8mm mauser chamber.  The thing is, it looked to me like it wasn't closing because the gauge was going in wompy jawed.  I have forster gauges and they're kind of short.  This is a controlled feed bolt, so you have to get the gauge into the groove and under the extractor while it's feeding or the bolt will never close completely.  I got it about halfway closed before it hung up and I couldn't ease it in any further.  I had a similar situation with my mod 70 (also a controlled feed bolt) but was able to push the gauge down and it went into place.  If I just dropped the gauge into the chamber and tried to close the bolt it got much closer, but I couldn't get it under the extractor. 

 

So right now I'm wondering if the steady diet of 8mm has caused a ring to form like what you get in a .357 if you always shoot 38 special.  Either that or I need to do it right and remove the extractor like my gunsmith friend has told me in the past.  Even if I knew how to do that, the pawn shop probably wouldn't like it. 

 

This same pawn shop had a colt M1892 Army revolver that they had marked as a 38 special.  It SHOULD be a 38 long colt unless it's been altered.  I want to rescue that gun from them, but it's currently not working and they have it priced as if it was. 

 

Checking headspace on an extractor-equipped bolt action rifle can be a bit tricky, The best way is to remove the extractor before dropping the gage into the chamber.  While you may be able to hook the gage under the extractor, you can still get a false reading. If the GO gage dropped into the chamber without attempting to close the bolt, with only the head and extractor groove showing, then it probably was a .30-06...maybe.  From the bore diameter you measured, it probably is a .30 caliber barrel.  However, I would still have liked to check the headspace with the extractor removed.  Doubt the pawn shop would allow you to remove the extractor. :( 

 

Next question: What would happen if you fired 8 x 57 (aka 8mm Mauser) in a .30-06 rifle?  IF the round was held back by the extractor when the round was fired, the case would probably fireform out to fill the chamber.  The problem comes if the impact of the firing pin drives the cartridge forward, but still ignites the primer.  In that case, if you look at the difference in headspace (location of the shoulder), you could get a head separation with hot gases loose in the receiver.  The M1917 action is pretty strong, and U.S. manufacturers do tend to download the 8mm Mauser, but I wouldn't want to chance it!  No, shooting a .324" jacketed bullet down a .308" groove barrel won't blow the gun; the bullet will swage down, with probably not much increase in pressure.  The problem comes, again, with excessive headspace if an 8mm Mauser round is fired in a .30-06 chamber.  The ONLY way I would buy a gun like that would be if I could have a professional gunsmith check it out FIRST!. 

One other thought:  During WWI, Britain wasn't able to produce enough P14 rifles. They contracted with Remington to make the P14 in .303 British.  I don't know if any of those guns were stamped with U.S. Ordnance's flaming bomb, or not, but, again, I'd want to be sure this wasn't a P14! 

 

Ride careful, Pard!

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I've read a lot of Trailrider's post thru the years, and his knowledge is probably much greater than mine on ballistics, etc. But after reloading since about 1976 firing an 8mm bullet thru a .30 cal. bore seems like a bum idea to me, esp. if the 8mm was military stuff with a rock hard core. I guess I'll take his word that it wouldn't blow up the gun, but I have both and I don't think I'll shoot any 8mm's thru my '06's to test the theory. I haven't dug out my rifles to test it, but between the fatter case and larger bullet, I wouldn't THINK an 8mm would chamber in an '06.

JMHO, worth what you paid for it.

JHC

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4 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

One other thought:  During WWI, Britain wasn't able to produce enough P14 rifles. They contracted with Remington to make the P14 in .303 British.  I don't know if any of those guns were stamped with U.S. Ordnance's flaming bomb, or not, but, again, I'd want to be sure this wasn't a P14! 

 

That's a good point.  I happen to have some 303 british headpsace gauges too.  If i go back to look at the rifle again I'll take them with me.  At this point the gun will have to be cheap enough to be worth the cost of having a gunsmith look at it.  I'm hoping that once I convince him that he's got no idea what he has and might in fact be opening himself up to liability by telling people it's an 8mm, he might let it go cheap.  The day I went, "the gun guy" wasn't there.  I plan to call him monday. 

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12 hours ago, Capt. James H. Callahan said:

I just tried to chamber a Romanian 8mm military round in a Ruger 77 '06. No go. Might if you forced it but I didn't want a shell stuck.

JHC

This is correct. 8x57(8mm Mauser) will not go in 7.62x63(.30-06 Springfield) as the case profile is different. The .30-06 will not chamber in the 8mm as it is too long. I know because I've tried it when an individual tried to load his deer rifle up in camp and it just wouldn't chamber. He had a long Mauser in 8mm and I had a K98. The shell in question was definitely a .30-06. Needless to say he had to borrow some ammunition. I then switched to a .30-06 in light of repetitive borrowing. A short while later, that fellow got himself a .30-06 and I began hunting with a .300 Win Mag...the arms race did not continue any further. 

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6 hours ago, Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984 said:

Does s pawn broker have any responsibilities to what he sells?

 

Probably not legally, I dunno.  I'll appeal to his moral responsibility instead.  Which reminds me, I need to give him a call. 

 

There are stories on the internet of people accidentally shooting an 8mm mauser in a 30-06.  Could be that some 8mm mausers are loaded to a short enough OAL that they will chamber? 

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On 2/3/2019 at 12:58 AM, Ramblin Gambler said:

I was in a pawn shop today and saw a rifle that i thought was a 30-06 but they said was an 8mm Mauser.  I suspect the guy who used to own it thought it was an 8mm and fired 8mm through it regularly.  I want to tap some of the knowledge we have around here and see if anyone knows what would happen if you fed a 30-06 a steady diet of 8mm. 

 

More details below: 

 

I'm pretty sure the rifle is an early Remington model 30.  For those not familiar with that gun, after WW1 when Remington was done making the P17 pattern enfields, they used the leftover parts and tooling to make a new sporting rifle, the mod 30.  I say it was an early one because the bolt and safety had military markings on it (a flaming bomb and an "E" for eddystone).  There were no markings telling the model or the caliber that I could see.  They might have been under the scope mounts, but I think the early rifles might not have been marked at all.  Maybe since they only came in 30-06, there was no reason to mark them.  I haven't seen any proof of this but it makes sense and this is the second one I've seen that wasn't marked.  This rifle also cocked on closing like the P17, and not on opening like most model 30's. 

 

Anyway, this rifle was marked as a model 98 in 8mm mauser on the tag.  I asked why they thought that and was told that's what the guy who sold it to them said.  I wish I'd taken pictures because it was most certainly not an M98.  But I got to wondering if it might have been rechambered to 8mm mauser.  So I came back with a 30 cal bore gauge and a set of 30-06 go/nogo gauges.  If it was really 8mm, the bore should have swallowed the bore gauge.  It didn't.  The bore measured around .3010 or .3005.  The same as my other 30-06 barrels.  Then I tried the go and nogo gauges and couldn't get the bolt closed on either one.  If I understand the dimensions of the 2 rounds correctly, that would be expected from 30-06 gauges in an 8mm mauser chamber.  The thing is, it looked to me like it wasn't closing because the gauge was going in wompy jawed.  I have forster gauges and they're kind of short.  This is a controlled feed bolt, so you have to get the gauge into the groove and under the extractor while it's feeding or the bolt will never close completely.  I got it about halfway closed before it hung up and I couldn't ease it in any further.  I had a similar situation with my mod 70 (also a controlled feed bolt) but was able to push the gauge down and it went into place.  If I just dropped the gauge into the chamber and tried to close the bolt it got much closer, but I couldn't get it under the extractor. 

 

So right now I'm wondering if the steady diet of 8mm has caused a ring to form like what you get in a .357 if you always shoot 38 special.  Either that or I need to do it right and remove the extractor like my gunsmith friend has told me in the past.  Even if I knew how to do that, the pawn shop probably wouldn't like it. 

 

This same pawn shop had a colt M1892 Army revolver that they had marked as a 38 special.  It SHOULD be a 38 long colt unless it's been altered.  I want to rescue that gun from them, but it's currently not working and they have it priced as if it was. 

 

Are you sure its a model 30? Lots of custom rifles were built on 1917 actions, because of the action length they were very popular magnum length cartridges.

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1 hour ago, Steel-eye Steve SASS #40674 said:

Are you sure its a model 30? Lots of custom rifles were built on 1917 actions, because of the action length they were very popular magnum length cartridges.

 

I see no markings on the barrel or action telling it's model.  I only think it's a model 30 because a buddy of mine has one a lot like this (his is fancier) and I did some research. On both guns, I believe the scope mounts are covering up some markings. 

 

Other than the action, the general shape of the stock is what makes me think it's a mod 30.  Mod 30's were kind of blocky or angular in the back and had that fancy schnabel fore end.  Since they used surplus parts for the early rifles, there's probably a thin line between an early mod 30 and a sporterized P17.  This one had a SN visible, but my buddy's gun did not.  I probably should have written it down. 

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P O Ackley Fired lot's of 8 x 57 rounds in 30-06 chambered guns for testing never blew-up a gun ...while doing it ....

 

Could the rifle be one of many 8mm's rechambered to 8mm x 06

Or one of those Mausers rebarreled to 30-06..

The 1893, 1895 and 1896 Mausers all cocked on Closing ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

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No way it's a mauser.  I'd bet good money that the bolt is either a P14 or M1917.  I don't look too closely at mausers but I don't recall ever seeing one that had the bolt handle offset back, they're always straight.  Plus there's the unique (I think) safety and the eddystone mark.  I called them yesterday and asked him why he thought it was an 8mm.  He said because it looked like a mauser and they tried an 8mm round in it and it chambered, so they figured that must be what it is.  They're going to have a gunsmith look more closely at it on Friday. 

 

The bad thing is that once they figure out what it is, they will probably raise the price.  A sporterized mauser is worth less than a sporterized M1917.   

 

Here's a picture of a sporterized m1917 from the internet that shows the bolt handle and safety that I'm talking about. 

 

Eddystone - SPORTERIZED M1917 30-06 BOLT-ACTION RIFLE - Picture 6

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