Jump to content
SASS Wire Forum

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Tell Sackett SASS 18436

4 "heroic" police officers shot in Houston

Recommended Posts

I'm sure all of you have heard about the shooting the other day. The official line is: 4 heroic police officers were shot while serving a drug warrent on heroin dealers. Both suspects killed.  When police broke in the suspects opened fire on them.

Now the story has changed from when I first saw it and read about it on the news. When I first read it the Chief of police said when they broke in a pitbull chaged at them so they killed it and the homeowner opened fire on them with a 357. 

From what I've seen and heard thus far on the news and just doing a little thinking about it, here's my alternate scenario:

After receiving an anonymous(?) tip form an informant(someone with a grudge?), undercover police officers(in plainclothes and wearing skimasks?) attempt to serve a search warrant( shouting police, search warrant while breaking down their door?). When the dog does his job and goes after the intruders, they gun him down. When the homeowner tries to defend his home, they kill him. When his wife tries to help him, they kill her. 

Now if this is the way it happened, the police will never admit it. But the information out ther now says this couple had (virtually) no police record. They had liver there 20 or 30 years. More that one neighbor said on camera they don't believe the accusations. They were in their late 50s, and the man was a disabled army veteran.  They certainly don't sound like your stereotype drug dealers.

Marijuana and a "white powder"(being tested) were found at the scene. Nothing about any black tar heroin. 3 rifles and 2 shotguns taken. Hardly an arsenal(except to the media).

Now I'm not the only one who thinks things might not be what they seem. One of the DJs on the radio show I listen to said this morning that things weren't "adding up".

Had someone broken into MY house under these circumstances, I suspect the results would have been about the same. Doesn't make me a drug dealer who should be shot down. 

And I'm not going to argue with anyone about the validity of so called "no knock" warrants. There's no such thing. Not at MY house. Someone wants to serve a warrant on me, they can knock on my door and we'll take it from there. They want to break in, they're criminals and will be treated as such. And I don't care if courts HAVE said "no knock" is OK. They are unconstitutional. I can read the Bill of Rights for myself. I don't need it "interpreted". Too much of that crap now.

Anyway, my point is don't always believe the official police line. Or what the media reports. Wait for FACTS. If there ever are any. I figured that out long ago, even before I saw the mess down in Olmos Park, TX. If you believed the police there, the open carry activists were actually Dillinger, Bonnie and Clyde, etc. (Hint:check it out on youtube)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you ever done a high risk dynamic entry?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Henry T Harrison said:

Have you ever done a high risk dynamic entry?

 

That is somewhat fallacious and irrelevant to the points he was making. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ski Masks? WHY?

Have you ever listened to videos where Police or Feds yell as they go through the door when busting into a door to serve a warrant?

Half the time they sound like they have a mouth full of marbles and anyone inside probably wouldn't understand a word they are saying.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are 'we' sure this was not a 'no-knock' warrant?

I was on a warrant service team-We would use the car's PA system to let the folks know.

Many times, we had to evac the nearby homes in case shooting might start. Or we would be using 'gas'.

OLG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Had one like this down in San Diego a few years ago where the feds broke into the wrong house because they were at the wrong address. After all the federal agencies involved came clean we learned the truth, there were no drugs at his house and they had screwed up. The guy that they nearly killed got a pretty large settlement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Nice wheel chair Mr. Smith. How's that liquified diet going for you?"

Mr. Smith rolls away grumbling.

"What a lucky guy...He got one helluva settlement from that shooting...."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

"Nice wheel chair Mr. Smith. How's that liquified diet going for you?"

Mr. Smith rolls away grumbling.

"What a lucky guy...He got one helluva settlement from that shooting...."

Yep, that’s about how it is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When bad shoots go down the investigations almost always reveal any screw ups that the agency did.

The claim that the police will never admit it is simply not correct but it is the pervading attitude of those who have not studied incidents like this.

 

Tell, could you please provide a link or source to this information? I can't find anything on line yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

"Nice wheel chair Mr. Smith. How's that liquified diet going for you?"

Mr. Smith rolls away grumbling.

"What a lucky guy...He got one helluva settlement from that shooting...."

Ain't gonna get a lot out of this................except for two graves and a cremation.

 

Sad if this is the facts, I really hope that this is not the truth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

When bad shoots go down the investigations almost always reveal any screw ups that the agency did.

The claim that the police will never admit it is simply not correct but it is the pervading attitude of those who have not studied incidents like this.

 

Tell, could you please provide a link or source to this information? I can't find anything on line yet.

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/houston-shooting-today-5-police-officers-shot-in-southeast-houston-suspect-dead-2019-01-28-live/

 

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article225211120.html

 

5 pm, with uniformed police, and marked cars with their sirens on.  If true seems like the homeowner would have known they were cops.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Shortly before 5 p.m., the narcotics officers attempted to serve a search warrant.  The officers announced themselves as they breached the front door, Acevedo said. Uniformed officers in marked police cars also turned on their lights and sirens.  “Immediately upon reaching the door, officers came under fire,” Acevedo said.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

When bad shoots go down the investigations almost always reveal any screw ups that the agency did.

The claim that the police will never admit it is simply not correct but it is the pervading attitude of those who have not studied incidents like this.

 

 

Bob, as you know there are many that cannot handle nor believe the truth when it does not go their way. They are the ones that scream the loudest. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I have read a variety of stories about this shoot but none mention masked police officers, they all mention that these 2 weren’t saints. The news says that there were many officers involved. From what I gather these folks knew the police were there and it seems the man was laying in wait. The dog attacked and the police killed it. The man shot the first officer that came in and when he went down the wife tried to take the officer’s shotgun and was shot by following officers. The man went back into a room and came out firing again, presumably because he reloaded his revolver. He was shot after hitting 4 officers with gun fire. One officer was shot in the face and 2 in the neck. I can’t remember where the 4th was shot. This would tell me, a novice (at best) that this dude was shooting for the head or even the neck because he knew the cops would be wearing body armor. 

 

That’s my take on what I read in about 8 different articles.

 

this article is 3 hours old...https://abc13.com/amp/disabled-veteran-and-wife-killed-in-shootout-with-police/5110865/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When I read about something like this I pretty much assume the cops were in the right and the civilian(s) who got shot had it coming. Why you might ask? Because experience tells me the vast majority of officer involved shootings are justified.  If evidence to the contrary comes to light I’ll change my mind (like the cop who entered the apartment she thought was hers and shot the resident). Those type incidents are the exception, not the rule.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not there ( meaning in the area to see local coverage), wasn't involved, won't defend or condemn. But I do know that serving warrants was one of the duties that made my heart rate increase and worried me the most.

 

Cops always right? No. Cops always wrong? No. Let's slow down and see what they find.

 

I can see it from the civilian side, too. Daughter and family had a situation that could have gone bad, but didn't. Won't go into details, but twenty eighteen can sound like twenty-eight ten if you're not careful.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

Won't go into details, but twenty eighteen can sound like twenty-eight ten if you're not careful.

 

?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Officers should have responded to twenty eighteen XXX St. But they went to twenty-eight ten XXX St. Dispatcher should have clarified address adding 2-0-1-8 XXX St.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

When bad shoots go down the investigations almost always reveal any screw ups that the agency did.

The claim that the police will never admit it is simply not correct but it is the pervading attitude of those who have not studied incidents like this.

 

Tell, could you please provide a link or source to this information? I can't find anything on line yet.

Depends on where you are, Bob.  It wasn't common but it also wasn't unheard of in southern California, especially the last few years before I left.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

When I read about something like this I pretty much assume the cops were in the right and the civilian(s) who got shot had it coming. Why you might ask? Because experience tells me the vast majority of officer involved shootings are justified.  If evidence to the contrary comes to light I’ll change my mind (like the cop who entered the apartment she thought was hers and shot the resident). Those type incidents are the exception, not the rule.

I'm not disputing that, but I get a bit tired of the LEOs rallying before the truth is out.  That's as bad as the news media doing the same thing.

 

Just for the record I'm about as pro-cop as anyone you'll ever meet.  I have no issue at all with the many I've met since moving to Arizona, but I personally knew some really bad cops in SoCal... worked part time with three of them at different times.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The news media, what a great source of info, they never get it wrong. A local "DJ" thinks something is amiss, he must be an expert. What makes you think all veterans are law abiding. So what is the age requirement of a drug dealer. Is there a residency requirement for drug dealers? Apparently this guy's disability didn't prevent him from shooting 4 cops. Maybe we should wait and see what happens with the investigation before we start bashing cops. 

         

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What was the hurry?  Was the couple gonna kill a hostage?  Who's life was in danger from anyone but the cops?  Can't wait 'til they go to the store?  

The police should be very afraid to enter our homes.  They should be doing everything possible to avoid bringing about a life and death situation where no such danger exists.  They are supposed to be our fellow free men protecting and serving us, all of us, even suspected drug dealers.  The job description cannot include initiating violence against their follow citizens unless lives are in danger.  If their job is made more dangerous by respecting their fellow citizens' rights, so be it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An anonymous tip is not enough to get a judge to sign a warrant.  That barely passes "reasonable suspicion," and is clearly NOT "probable cause," which is required for a warrant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

One officer was shot in the face and 2 in the neck. I can’t remember where the 4th was shot. This would tell me, a novice (at best) that this dude was shooting for the head or even the neck because he knew the cops would be wearing body armor. 

 

The last one was shot in the shoulder.  I was thinking the same thing. I wonder if vests saved any lives that day.  Could be he just laid down such a large volume of fire that the few who were wounded just happened to be high shots.  I've been waiting to hear if they found the heroine. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Cyrus Cassidy #45437 said:

An anonymous tip is not enough to get a judge to sign a warrant.  That barely passes "reasonable suspicion," and is clearly NOT "probable cause," which is required for a warrant.

That is correct. No judge would issue a warrant based on the "anonymous tip"  mentioned in the OP's "alternate scenario. " At best, it would only get someone to check into the persons record and associates and see if there was any basis to start an investigation.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Joke 'um said:

What was the hurry?  Was the couple gonna kill a hostage?  Who's life was in danger from anyone but the cops?  Can't wait 'til they go to the store?  

 

 That's a great idea. Nothing like a shoot-out in the produce isle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/houston-shooting-today-5-police-officers-shot-in-southeast-houston-suspect-dead-2019-01-28-live/

 

https://www.star-telegram.com/news/state/texas/article225211120.html

 

5 pm, with uniformed police, and marked cars with their sirens on.  If true seems like the homeowner would have known they were cops.

Yeah I know that. I was wanting some information that led to the formulation of Tell's alternate scenario.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

 That's a great idea. Nothing like a shoot-out in the produce isle.

 

I detect sarcasm here, but tactically, isn't a confrontation in the street many times better than a shootout from a position where they've had a chance to dig in and harden?  It seems like we risk officer's lives giving them a tactical disadvantage because we want them to be able to freely search the premises once the person is apprehended. 

 

That's an honest question BTW, not a snarky comment.  I have no training in tactics and I know we have a lot of folks here with military and law enforcement training who can answer it. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

.... Won't go into details, but twenty eighteen can sound like twenty-eight ten if you're not careful.

 

 

19 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

?

 

2018 vs. 2810

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, Gambler, who are correct about the sarcasm. Confrontation on the street better? Possible high speed chase, bystanders hit by gun fire. Anything can go wrong with any plan. Improper intel, poor planning? I don't know. Done of us do.

 

I just get a little tired with the second guessing and agenda driven statements. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Joke 'um said:

What was the hurry?  Was the couple gonna kill a hostage?  Who's life was in danger from anyone but the cops?  Can't wait 'til they go to the store?  

The police should be very afraid to enter our homes.  They should be doing everything possible to avoid bringing about a life and death situation where no such danger exists.  They are supposed to be our fellow free men protecting and serving us, all of us, even suspected drug dealers.  The job description cannot include initiating violence against their follow citizens unless lives are in danger.  If their job is made more dangerous by respecting their fellow citizens' rights, so be it.

Let me know when you’re ready to do the job 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

 

2018 vs. 2810

Thanks Allie, it was the "won't go into details" preface I was wondering about.

 

Back when I was flying, the FAA require use of the same phonetic alphabet and numbering system as the military. I assumed all dispatchers on the radio (police, fire etc.) did the same for just this kind of scenario. That is, it would be "two zero one eight" or "two eight one zero".

 

Is that not required?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

“It’s  law enforcements job to protect even drug dealers”

 I guess you been smoking the dealerswacky weed!?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

I detect sarcasm here, but tactically, isn't a confrontation in the street many times better than a shootout from a position where they've had a chance to dig in and harden?  It seems like we risk officer's lives giving them a tactical disadvantage because we want them to be able to freely search the premises once the person is apprehended. 

 

That's an honest question BTW, not a snarky comment.  I have no training in tactics and I know we have a lot of folks here with military and law enforcement training who can answer it. 

No. It’s always better to have the suspects contained. Like Chance said. You don’t want a street shootout where you can’t control the perimeters and citizens are liable to be endangered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.