Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I'm not real happy with my current set of .44-40 Lyman dies and am considering replacing them. Having a hard time getting consistent belling. I also have separate Redding and Lee crimp dies, but they tend to shove the bullet deeper into the case after seating. If I back off, the crimp is weak. I'm also wondering what's the difference between RCBS standard dies and their cowboy dies except a $20 premium and the color? Is it marketing, or is there an objective difference? Are they any different/better than the offerings of other mfrs? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The cowboy dies arrived and I've reloaded a small batch of cartridges. They've made quite a difference.* First off, once set, they stay set and I'm now getting consistent belling and seating. The Lyman dies needed constant fiddling, especially the belling/expander die where the plug would loosen from the stem. The seating die is spot on, where the Lyman varied quite a bit. The sizing die does a better job of defining the neck and shoulder of the case. Once the Cowboy dies were set, I reset the Redding Profile and Lee FC dies. Both work very well now. *Note: My experience is limited to a comparison with .44-40 cal. Lyman and RCBS Cowboy dies only. I've no idea how they compare to other manufacturers in this caliber. My other dies are a mix of Hornady, RCBS and Lee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LawMan Mark, SASS #57095L Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I have them in 45 Colt, 45-70, 44-40 and 38-40. They do a better job of crimping and seating than any other dies I have, including the Dillon dies I have in 45 Colt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Pretty sure the Cowboy Dies are specifically designed for soft lead bullets; read that somewhere else just forgot to bookmark it. They have a tad different internal dimensions and the seating die has a little different profile. That's what I use for my 44-40s and I don't use a Lee or Redding crimp die as the last step; I seat and crimp with the Cowboy Die and as stated above do a better job than anything I've tried. Use them for both black and smokeless. I now have Cowboy Dies for a few other calibers and love them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 The .44-40 dies from RCBS have a significant difference from regular to cowboy, cheap but significant to your problem. The cowboy series recognizes we use lead bullets, so the expander button is larger. About 0.429" - instead of the 0.427 that works well with the jacketed slugs most folks load. Now, you can slip in an expander from RCBS for .44 mag and get about the same result - safe seating of the slug without damaging the lead (or poly plastic coating, when using that type). I load .44-40 with RCBS cowboy dies but a Redding factory profile for the crimp step. If you are pushing the slug into the case when using that F P crimp die, you have it adjusted poorly, usually. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
watab kid Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 did not know this ...thanks , Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Howdy All I can tell you is I have been loading 44-40 with a standard RCBS set of dies, not the Cowboy dies, for a zillion years. I don't think the cowboy dies were available yet when I started loading 44-40. I am a satisfied customer. If I was going to be buying any new dies, I would probably look into the Cowboy dies, but so far Hornady and standard RCBS dies have been fine for me for 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Special, 44 Russian, 38-40, and 38 Special. Don't need to buy any more dies right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 57 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: Now, you can slip in an expander from RCBS for .44 mag and get about the same result - safe seating of the slug without damaging the lead (or poly plastic coating, when using that type). That's what I did about 25-30 years ago. Bought the .44 Mangle-em expander plug and four extra of the small lock rings. Use a pair on each of the original expander plug and the Maggie plug. Opposing the pair of rings on each plug after I got the proper adjustment, allows me to change plugs, if needed (which I don't do nowadays since I primarily shoot .429-.430 bullets for CAS). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I use the Lee dies. Not only do they work great, but I really like their "powder thru the expander die" feature. And, they are less expensive. The only time I use RCBS is if I inherited them or if Lee doesn't make that specific caliber. Yes, I also use a FCD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boomstick Bruce Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I'm using 45 Colt Lee dies in my Hornady lock n load. They work well but they have to be screwed almost all the way in and the expander die doesn't expand as well as it did in my Lee Challenger... I final just ordered Hornady dies about an hour ago... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roscoe Regulator Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I agree with others who are using the RCBS Cowboy dies. I would point out though that the dies for this necked cartridge are not carbide like most others in the series, so case lube is necessary. I know about the RCBS Cowboy dies for other cartridges. I have most of them, but I haven't had different die sets to compare on 44-40. I know the others are larger diameters than standard dies. The exception was Hornady Cowboy, which produced different results only on the expander, so sized cases would gall and ran better when not sizing new brass. I set the Hornadys aside and ordered RCBS Cowboy, worth the price. I too use the .44 Spl/Mag expander plug, since my gun requires .430 bullets (Uberti 1875 Remington Outlaw). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Art Tillery Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 All I use for all my lead bullets are the RCBS cowboy dies. I have them in 38, 38-55, 45\70, 32 H&R, 45colt, and of course 44-40 (two sets of those actually). The slightly different specs on them seem to work great for lead bullets. I really like them and don't think you would be disappointed if you got them Abilene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lead Friend, SASS #53635 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I use Dillon dies in .45 Colt and .357 on an XL650 and Hornady dies in .45/70 on an old Pro-Jector. I didn’t know I could do any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 30, 2019 Author Share Posted January 30, 2019 Thanks everybody. I've ordered a set of Cowboy dies from Midway. I'll post a review after I've had a chance to use them. I've been reloading a number of calibers for 10 years, with Hornady, RCBS and Lee dies without difficulty. This is the only Lyman die set I have and I've found I'm constantly fiddling with adjustments. To be fair, .44-40 is the only bottleneck cartridge I load, so maybe it's operator error. Will know in a few days and let y'all know. Thanks for the input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 .44-40 is a finicky cartridge to load. The thin neck and case wall makes it very susceptible to buckled necks if you: * don't bell sufficiently to let slug enter mouth cleanly * bell too much and the case shoulder collapses * seat/crimp so that the case mouth jams into the land above the crimp groove you are trying to hit * have case lengths which vary (usually due to mixed brand brass, rather than the "conventional" problem with brass stretching in rifle cartridges due to setting shoulders back after firing at high pressures) * get careless and catch the base of the slug on the mouth as you seat * get careless and catch the mouth on the base of the sizer die * try to fix a smashed mouth by running it up in the sizer die without taking most of the dent out with a suitable tool (.50 BMG dummy round, taper-nose pliers of correct size, etc) So, don't get to thinking you are the only one who has to be a tad more careful and picky about the techniques and equipment to load .44-40 (or other thin-wall bottleneck cartridges) properly! Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Dan Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 Been my experience that using different makes of brass will cause the issue the OP is talking about. I use only starline brass and no longer have these issues. Running a Dillon xl650 with rcbs cowboy dies. Different brass have different lengths and neck thickness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted January 30, 2019 Share Posted January 30, 2019 I guess I should point out that while I do use the Lee dies for .44-40 and .32-20, and prefer them for other calibers whenever possible, I do use plain old regular RCBS dies for 56-50 Spencer, .45 Colt, .45 ACP/Autorim, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, 357 Mangum, and .38 Special. They all work just fine with lead bullets, and I have never seen any need replace them with "Cowboy" dies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuckwagon McTaggart Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 When I began reloading 44-40, I also had a the problem of the crimp die shoving the bullet slightly deeper into the case. I was seating and crimping in separate steps. I was using a 200 grain RNFP that was sized to .430". I think the problem was that the crimp shoulder on the crimp die was catching on the driving band above the crimp groove of the bullet and pushing it deeper. The problem went away when I switched to a 44 mag crimp die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roscoe Regulator Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 16 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: I guess I should point out that while I do use the Lee dies for .44-40 and .32-20, and prefer them for other calibers whenever possible, I do use plain old regular RCBS dies for 56-50 Spencer, .45 Colt, .45 ACP/Autorim, .44 Magnum, .44 Special, 357 Mangum, and .38 Special. They all work just fine with lead bullets, and I have never seen any need replace them with "Cowboy" dies. I think that depends on the context of .428 versus .430 bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted January 31, 2019 Share Posted January 31, 2019 21 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: .44-40 is a finicky cartridge to load. The thin neck and case wall makes it very susceptible to buckled necks if you: * don't bell sufficiently to let slug enter mouth cleanly * bell too much and the case shoulder collapses * seat/crimp so that the case mouth jams into the land above the crimp groove you are trying to hit * have case lengths which vary (usually due to mixed brand brass, rather than the "conventional" problem with brass stretching in rifle cartridges due to setting shoulders back after firing at high pressures) * get careless and catch the base of the slug on the mouth as you seat * get careless and catch the mouth on the base of the sizer die * try to fix a smashed mouth by running it up in the sizer die without taking most of the dent out with a suitable tool (.50 BMG dummy round, taper-nose pliers of correct size, etc) So, don't get to thinking you are the only one who has to be a tad more careful and picky about the techniques and equipment to load .44-40 (or other thin-wall bottleneck cartridges) properly! Good luck, GJ There is no question that the WCF cartridges need a bit of care, particularly when first starting out adjusting the dies, and matching expander plugs to bullet diameters. But, in my experience, once you get things adjusted properly, and stick to one brand of .44-40 brass (I use Winchester brass exclusively), You won't have any major problems. I will certainly agree that one has to watch out not to get ham-fisted and run the press too fast, you won't get smashed case mouths. I've been loading mostly the same Winchester brass for the last 20 years or so, and, except for some initial problems with my Rossi M65 catching the mouths on the edge of the chamber mouth (fixed with a file), causing "pitcher-mouthing"...which I was able to fix on most of the cases...and the loss of some brass in tall grass or at "no-pickup" matches, I'm still using the same brass! If a handloader can't be a little careful, then switch to something like .44 Magnum, loaded to .44-40 levels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted February 5, 2019 Author Share Posted February 5, 2019 BTT - topic updated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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