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Saw something that I've never seen since I started SASS CAS in 2003.  A new shooter, first time at our club, came to the line with loaded rifle and hammer back and TO called Stage DQ.  I was manning the unloading table so I didn't know what had happened, just that he unloaded live rounds from all of his weapons.  A few minutes later as I was moving to our next stage, someone on another posse asked me about why this guy was packing up his guns to leave when we still had two stages to go.  I didn't know.  Thought he might have had problems with one or more of his guns.

 

I later found out the TO that called the SDQ on him went over to him as he was packing up to leave, and the guy stated that he didn't feel that the SDQ call was correct.  When asked by the TO whether he had read the SASS handbook, he replied "some of it."  TO tried to explain that we have to follow the SASS rules even if "we" don't think it is a safety issue or agree with the rules, and that you learn from your mistakes.  This was just a local monthly match, not a state, regional or EOT match.  I did the exact same thing on the second stage at a state match a couple of years ago after I had been shooting for 14 years.  You bet I was upset at myself, but I didn't pack up and leave.  I stayed, shot the rest of the stages,  and helped do posse chores even though I had blown my clean match and was out of the running for placing in my category.  I've seen people get match DQs stay and help do posse chores.  I'm having a hard time believing this guy was so upset over a simple SDQ that he'd quit shooting and leave.

 

Not only did he leave, he had to walk over a quarter of a mile with all his stuff and wade across a creek to where he had left his car because he didn't want to drive his car across the creek crossing.  Someone had given him and his stuff a ride across the creek crossing in the back of their pickup. 

 

 

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It is a SDQ, too bad for the new guy but he shouldn't have left. He should have kept shooting and figured he learned something about the rules! I had to give a really good friend of mine a SDQ at a local match for the same thing and he was shooting really well up to then!:o

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I did that with the hammer back a year or so ago. I knew better but made the mistake. I stayed for the rest of the match. The RO did what he was supposed to do.

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I’ll bet he shows up next month after he’s thought about it. If I were on the posse I would want to know who was manning the loading table. That person needs a stern talking to as well.

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I hope he comes back, maybe finds a mentor, learns the ropes and loves this game like we do. New folks may not yet understand that most of us screw up like this at least once. If we aren't brand new we just accept it, put our guns up and stay for the fun. He has a pretty big investment, maybe he will realize life is a learning experience and jump in again.

 

Imis 

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6 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I’ll bet he shows up next month after he’s thought about it. If I were on the posse I would want to know who was manning the loading table. That person needs a stern talking to as well.

A lot of places don't have anyone manning the loading table. 

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I hope he has some time to reflect and perhaps review the rules and understand why the call was made. If he is to come back to the game, I hope he does so with the understanding that we all screw up, and that the "cowboy way" is to swallow your pride and move forward. If not, he might be the type that is not particularly fun to shoot with.

 

As for the loading table, at most of the matches I have attended, the match director has asked if there are any new shooters. In my case, one or two shooters kept an eye on me, making sure I was doing things correctly. I know it is an extra responsibility, but the mentoring goes a long way.

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6 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

I’ll bet he shows up next month after he’s thought about it. If I were on the posse I would want to know who was manning the loading table. That person needs a stern talking to as well.

I disagree my friend, it's all on the shooter!!

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24 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I disagree my friend, it's all on the shooter!!

 

Ultimately, the shooter is the responsible one. No argument there. We look out for one another though, and particularly with a new shooter, walking them through the process and keeping an eye out is not a bad thing. When a new shooter screws up, I have to ask if some mentoring would have prevented it. I know it has prevented it in my case.

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6 minutes ago, DocWard said:

 

Ultimately, the shooter is the responsible one. No argument there. We look out for one another though, and particularly with a new shooter, walking them through the process and keeping an eye out is not a bad thing. When a new shooter screws up, I have to ask if some mentoring would have prevented it. I know it has prevented it in my case.

 

It MAY prevent it, but when it doesn't the mentor should not be reprimanded or talked to sternly as was insunuated earlier. That's a good way to run two shooters off. I know you didn't make that statement Doc.

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2 hours ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

I disagree my friend, it's all on the shooter!!

A new shooter? I disagree. 

 

 

 

Edit: see below

Edited by Pat Riot, SASS #13748

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Rereading Lorelei’s post she said new shooter to her club. That doesn’t necessarily mean “new” shooter. 

 

I can understand a small club not having someone stationed at the loading table but at the very least people in line should be checking each other.

 

 Ultimately it is the shooter’s responsibility, but this is a good safety lesson for everyone in the club. 

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Fellow shooters at the loading table should look out for one another. I've caught more than one hammer back, to the relief of the shooters. But bottom line, it is the shooter's responsibility. This shooter exhibited poor sportsmanship...... now about that side match.....

 

36igeBs.jpg

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2 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

It MAY prevent it, but when it doesn't the mentor should not be reprimanded or talked to sternly as was insunuated earlier. That's a good way to run two shooters off. I know you didn't make that statement Doc.

 

You are correct, and I didn't mean to imply that a mentor would need or deserve a stern talking to, only that one might have prevented the problem. I agree it could cause some hard feelings. I know if I were attempting to mentor someone and something like that slipped by me, I would feel bad enough that everyone would know it. I'm sure it is the same with most others. If someone were manning the loading table, it might be a good time for a "Hey, remember to keep an eye out for..." without it turning into a scolding. 

Edited by DocWard

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Interesting.

 

I've seen, several times, posts about letting new shooters, that "just came out to see what it's all about", being BEGGED to shoot (you'll see how much FUN it is) wearing t shirts or tennis shoes. Illegal. "That's all right. Cut him some slack. It's his first time."

 

So this guy, first time, comes to the line with the hammer cocked.

 

Is the chamber loaded? Then hell yeah, skip the SDQ and kick his ass to the curb. He's a dangerous moron.

 

Empty chamber? Then a FNG has broken a rule. "Hey! Dude! Lower the hammer. Can't have a cocked gun."

 

Does it again? THEN bust him.

 

I'd probably leave too.

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2 minutes ago, DocWard said:

 

You are correct, and I didn't mean to imply that a mentor would need or deserve a stern talking to, only that one might have prevented the problem. I agree it could cause some hard feelings. I know if I were attempting to mentor someone and something like that slipped by me, I would feel bad enough that everyone would know it. I'm sure it is the same with most others. If someone were manning the loading table, it might be a good time for a "Hey, remember to keep an eye out for..." without it turning into a scolding. 

 

You weren't the person I was referring to. You didn't imply anything.

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OP-You say this was his very first shoot-Had this new shooter attended any type of SASS orientation class?

Shooter owns the call, 110%.

OLG

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6 minutes ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Rereading Lorelei’s post she said new shooter to her club. That doesn’t necessarily mean “new” shooter. 

 

I can understand a small club not having someone stationed at the loading table but at the very least people in line should be checking each other.

 

 Ultimately it is the shooter’s responsibility, but this is a good safety lesson for everyone in the club

 

It is hard to say, but I still have the impression that he was a new shooter, because of the fact that he had only partially read the handbook. You are right, a small club may make things challenging, and it would make it so that everyone needs to step up their game. If you'll notice, I did correct you on one small detail.

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We always assigned a seasoned shooter to posse next to a new shooter. They watched them from cart to the firing line, and made sure they headed for the unloading table. This helped eliminate newbie mistakes.

 

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4 minutes ago, Alpo said:

Interesting.

 

I've seen, several times, posts about letting new shooters, that "just came out to see what it's all about", being BEGGED to shoot (you'll see how much FUN it is) wearing t shirts or tennis shoes. Illegal. "That's all right. Cut him some slack. It's his first time."

 

So this guy, first time, comes to the line with the hammer cocked.

 

Is the chamber loaded? Then hell yeah, skip the SDQ and kick his ass to the curb. He's a dangerous moron.

 

Empty chamber? Then a FNG has broken a rule. "Hey! Dude! Lower the hammer. Can't have a cocked gun."

 

Does it again? THEN bust him.

 

I'd probably leave too.

 

I've yet to attend a match where someone came "to see what it's all about" and been begged to shoot a match. Shoot a stage or two after the match, yes. However, if that did happen, someone needs to be beside him or her pretty much the entire time, walking them through it, unless or until it is clear they have a firm understanding.

 

Once someone brings their guns and gear, pays their match fees, and all, I look at it a little differently. IF the new shooter had approached the line with the hammer back on the first or maybe even the second stage, I can see saying "go back to the loading table and let's try this again" or something of the sort. But after that, then I tend to be of the opinion that the shooter is subject to the same expectations regarding the rules as everyone else. That is also where the mentor or posse awareness come into play, to give the shooter that little bit of extra help. That is purely a personal opinion though. 

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Just now, Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381 said:

We always assigned a seasoned shooter to posse next to a new shooter. They watched them from cart to the firing line, and made sure they headed for the unloading table. This helped eliminate newbie mistakes.

 

 

That is what happened with me. Heck, sometimes I wish it still did!

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11 minutes ago, Alpo said:

Interesting.

 

I've seen, several times, posts about letting new shooters, that "just came out to see what it's all about", being BEGGED to shoot (you'll see how much FUN it is) wearing t shirts or tennis shoes. Illegal. "That's all right. Cut him some slack. It's his first time."

 

So this guy, first time, comes to the line with the hammer cocked.

 

Is the chamber loaded? Then hell yeah, skip the SDQ and kick his ass to the curb. He's a dangerous moron.

 

Empty chamber? Then a FNG has broken a rule. "Hey! Dude! Lower the hammer. Can't have a cocked gun."

 

Does it again? THEN bust him.

 

I'd probably leave too.

 

Alpo makes a valid point, atleast from my interpretation of what he is expressing.

 

We often pick and choose those rules/guidelines that we ignore for Newbies.  We minimize some infractions and

seemingly have pretty harsh penalties for other newbie infractions.

 

That being stated, maybe clubs should be more responsible for assigning a 'mentor(s)' for the day to help

these newbies.   It could possibly make them feel more welcome and possibly prevent these type of

penalties from occurring.

 

..........Widder

 

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Years ago, when I first joined SASS I got a Stage DQ. I broke the 170 after being told to be careful with my cross draw. I do believe the two folks that gave me the DQ had more trepidation about giving the DQ than I had in angst about receiving it. I went ahead and put my guns in the cart and helped out on the stage.

 

I have seen people get mad and leave.

 

I have seen people quit going to clubs because they got a DQ, stage or match.

 

My point is, people are going to do what people do. No sense in letting their actions affect you when it comes to what happens after they commit a safety infraction. If they opt to go off in a huff, so be it. Life is too short for other people’s drama.

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If he earned a stage DQ and packed up and left in a huff, then you may be better off without him.  

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I'm not sure, but I think this was his first ever match.  He was stand-offish, (which was mentioned by other shooters on the posse that tried to engage him) and never volunteered to do any posse duties at all, not even picking up brass.  Now when I started, I started by picking up brass, then the unloading table (with help while I watched a few people and someone nearby in case I had any questions or problems), then loading table, then scorekeeping (years before ACES), then counting, and finally after completing the RO2 course, TOing (with someone kinda shadowing me and training me at first until I demonstrated my capabilities).  This was at a small club where we once had a posse of only 7 people. I've since found out this guy is a retired police officer so he would be familiar with having to follow rules/laws and is probably proficient with other guns and possibly other shooting disciplines, just not CAS shooting.

 

The SDQ WAS the CORRECT CALL even if he is a new shooter.  For safety's sake we can't ignore the SASS rules just because someone is a new shooter.  Did people try to be friendly and help him, I know most of the people on the posse usually go out of their way to "mentor" new shooters and make them feel comfortable and get things correct, but as I said, several other people mentioned he was stand-offish.  This posse has some of the same people every match, and we seem to get a lot of new shooters unless they specifically come with a person on one of the other posses.  Not that I tried to carry on a conversation with him, but I know I gave him an opening more than once by making a comment about the weather or what a great day it was to shoot.

 

He was not the only first-time shooter on this posse and the other guys really worked by picking up brass and asking questions.  I even had one new guy relieve me for a couple of shooters after he watched me and I explained what he needed to check for and had an experienced shooter nearby just in case.  Remember a smile goes along way to let someone know how you feel.  All of the other new guys had the biggest smiles/grins ever, but not this guy.

 

Maybe he'll come back, maybe he won't.  His loss if he doesn't come back, but if he's going to leave just because he got a SDQ, I hope he either changes his attitude to be more cowboy-like, friendly, and helpful with posse duties or doesn't return because if you have a small posse, it hurts to lose a person because they get upset about a correct safety call.

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As stated above, shooter is ultimately responsible for their actions.  My question is was the "new shooter" assigned a mentor at the match?  At our club, before the match we determine if there are any new shooters in the group.  If so, a mentor form the club is assigned as a mentor.  Not only for safety, but to make sure they have the proper equipment, understand the stages and otherwise have fun.  

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Sometimes an immature jerk joins SASS. I’ve encountered a few. Usually they don’t stay around for long. Time will tell if this guy is one or just had a bad day.

 

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Sarge,

He wasn't assigned a specific mentor, but all first time shooters have to demonstrate the use of all three weapons before the match starts.  Our Range Master is a certified SASS trainer and a VERY EXPERIENCED shooter, and he had all the new shooters demonstrate their weapons before the match.  In addition, many new shooters come with the friend that got them interested and they act as mentor, but all of the regular guys on this posse (we have a group of 7-9 that shoot together every match) have always been helpful to unattached new shooters and even when they had the friend that they came with there,  offered help and explanations.  In all, I know we had at least two brand new CAS shooters and possibly three on a posse of 14.  The TO that called the SDQ  is always willing to answer questions or clarify  the stage directions for ANY/EVERY shooter, not just new ones.  He is extremely qualified and always stays up-to-date on rule changes.

 

 

Edited by Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life
additional information
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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

..........Widder

 

 

Sorry for buttin' in... Widder, yer mailbox is full.  Could you send me a PM?

 

Thanks,

~Duc~

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Sadly I have seen this one before. That involved a very experienced shooter, (in fact the shooter who mentored me many moons ago) and his response was virtually identical. Left in a huff and did not return for quite some time. Broke my heart :( and stunned quite a few. Still hurting today in fact.

I have also seen the exact opposite where a shooter simply hung up their guns and threw themselves into posse chores until they settled back down or in the case of a MDQ came back for the next match with an attitude of "sure ain't gonna do that again!!"

Either way the response is solely on the shooter, and while we would like to have a perfectly run match every time, those are sometimes hard to come by. Mistakes have been made in the past, probably had some today and will certainly have some in the future. Those mistakes might be on the match officials, the shooter or those simply trying to help. The real lesson is in how we handle the adversity and come back from it. "It is not about life knocking you down, it's about whether you choose to get back up" unknown author

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

We often pick and choose those rules/guidelines that we ignore for Newbies.  We minimize some infractions and

seemingly have pretty harsh penalties for other newbie infractions

You interpret pretty dang good.

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4 hours ago, Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life said:

Sarge,

He wasn't assigned a specific mentor, but all first time shooters have to demonstrate the use of all three weapons before the match starts.  Our Range Master is a certified SASS trainer and a VERY EXPERIENCED shooter, and he had all the new shooters demonstrate their weapons before the match.  In addition, many new shooters come with the friend that got them interested and they act as mentor, but all of the regular guys on this posse (we have a group of 7-9 that shoot together every match) have always been helpful to unattached new shooters and even when they had the friend that they came with there,  offered help and explanations.  In all, I know we had at least two brand new CAS shooters and possibly three on a posse of 14.  The TO that called the SDQ  is always willing to answer questions or clarify  the stage directions for ANY/EVERY shooter, not just new ones.  He is extremely qualified and always stays up-to-date on rule changes.

 

 

Lorelei, Was not meant as a criticism.  Just a suggested alternative method of dealing with new shooters.  The TO made the right call.  He/She can't be everywhere watching everything.  A dedicated mentor on the other hand can watch, offer support and advice.  If an experienced shooter brings a new shooter, then they would be expected to mentor the new shooter.  Otherwise, someone volunteers or we assign someone.

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5 hours ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

Rereading Lorelei’s post she said new shooter to her club. That doesn’t necessarily mean “new” shooter. 

 

I can understand a small club not having someone stationed at the loading table but at the very least people in line should be checking each other.

 

 Ultimately it is the shooter’s responsibility, but this is a good safety lesson for everyone in the club. 

Pat,   There was a thread on here a while back about Loading Table Officers.  A substantial number of people believe that the LTO is a hinderance to their getting ready to shoot, and is not necessary.  I am not of that opinion, but some clubs have chosen to dispense with a LTO.  When I shoot at one, I always ask another shooter to check me before I go to the line.

 

Duffield

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26 minutes ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

Pat,   There was a thread on here a while back about Loading Table Officers.  A substantial number of people believe that the LTO is a hinderance to their getting ready to shoot, and is not necessary.  I am not of that opinion, but some clubs have chosen to dispense with a LTO.  When I shoot at one, I always ask another shooter to check me before I go to the line.

 

Duffield

 

Well, I missed that thread. It’s just as well. I would have ticked someone off, I am sure.

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18 hours ago, Duffield, SASS #23454 said:

Pat,   There was a thread on here a while back about Loading Table Officers.  A substantial number of people believe that the LTO is a hinderance to their getting ready to shoot, and is not necessary.  I am not of that opinion, but some clubs have chosen to dispense with a LTO.  When I shoot at one, I always ask another shooter to check me before I go to the line.

 

Duffield

We never used a LTO at the Mima Marauders, but used a UTO. It was understood that the shooter behind you at the loading table cleared your firearms.

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