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The Bearded Wonder

Real BP or BP sub

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3 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

I suspect folks want to divide us into little groups so it's easier to win a participation trophy buckle.

Same reason some folks decide to shoot a BP sub in a BP category. The sub gives them a little advantage and makes it easier to get that coveted participation trophy buckle.

First, I wasn't referring to categories...

 

Secondly, please explain the shooting advantage of using substitutes.

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1 minute ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

First, I wasn't referring to categories...

 

Secondly, please explain the shooting advantage of using substitutes.

 

1. Didn’t say you were.

 

2. Nope, I’m closed minded and don’t know.

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1 hour ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

1. Didn’t say you were.

 

2. Nope, I’m closed minded and don’t know.

I don't get it.

 

So why did you make that comment??

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't get it.

 

So why did you make that comment??

 

 

Because there are people in this sport that believe a substitute will give them an advantage over someone shooting real BP. Isn’t that why you shoot Subs? After all didn’t you poll a bunch of Open Minded BP shooters and come to the conclusion that subs are better?

 

 

I’ll stand by my previous statement, I truly don’t give a damn what anyone shoots as long as they meet SASS guidelines.  

 

Have a GREAT Sunday!

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I am in the group that if you shoot black powder then it is fine by me. Real or subs doesn't change the facts that with the wind in our faces it is still fun trying to find that second target in a string of five! Whatever floats your boat just keep shooting the Black.

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11 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Why is it that folks keep trying to divide us into little groups???

 

Well if ya ain't using this.. or you shooting that, etc, than you ain't this or that.

 

Geeze...

Well, if you think about it, if ya ain’t using this or you ain’t shooting  that, etc, then you actually ain’t this or that...  but so what?  We all get to do this the way we want.  It’s a big tent.  

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I don’t shoot BP but I’m curious about it. I read with fascination the many different strategies and preferences and reasonings behind each individual’s choice. The combinations and possibilities seem to be endless which makes it both intriguing and daunting. I’ve read on the Wire that some store their BP in outbuildings and also in purpose built magazines. Is there a consensus on this? I ask because I don’t have an outbuilding, just a basement reloading room.

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12 minutes ago, Lead Friend, SASS #53635 said:

I don’t shoot BP but I’m curious about it. I read with fascination the many different strategies and preferences and reasonings behind each individual’s choice. The combinations and possibilities seem to be endless which makes it both intriguing and daunting. I’ve read on the Wire that some store their BP in outbuildings and also in purpose built magazines. Is there a consensus on this? I ask because I don’t have an outbuilding, just a basement reloading room.

I load all of what I shoot in my basement. 

If your Not smoking  and have No  open flame in any area you are loading.

I dont see what's the difference from a out building or a basement.

Rooster 

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11 minutes ago, Lead Friend, SASS #53635 said:

I don’t shoot BP but I’m curious about it. I read with fascination the many different strategies and preferences and reasonings behind each individual’s choice. The combinations and possibilities seem to be endless which makes it both intriguing and daunting. I’ve read on the Wire that some store their BP in outbuildings and also in purpose built magazines. Is there a consensus on this? I ask because I don’t have an outbuilding, just a basement reloading room.

I store mine in .50 cal cans in the loading room.  A separate outside storage is not really required.  Real BP is an explosive rather than a propellant, but you need to take the same precautions as with smokeless. The main one being no sparks!

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3 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

 

Because there are people in this sport that believe a substitute will give them an advantage over someone shooting real BP. Isn’t that why you shoot Subs? After all didn’t you poll a bunch of Open Minded BP shooters and come to the conclusion that subs are better?

 

 

I’ll stand by my previous statement, I truly don’t give a damn what anyone shoots as long as they meet SASS guidelines.  

 

Have a GREAT Sunday!

Do you realise that real BP is classified as an explosive and as such is subjected to much more stringent requirements with regard to transportation and storage compared to Subs which are classified as a propellant.

 

Did you consider that maybe folks use Subs because that's all they can get??

 

Some cities won't allow real BP into their cities...

 

Phantom

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2 hours ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said:

Well, if you think about it, if ya ain’t using this or you ain’t shooting  that, etc, then you actually ain’t this or that...  but so what?  We all get to do this the way we want.  It’s a big tent.  

That wasn't the point.

 

An example to make my point: folks say "come to the Dark Side"... Pard says ok!! Tells the same folks that he/she shot their first BP match and had a blast and the 777 worked great!!!

 

Response... Well...ya didn't really shoot BP than...777 isn't the same... It's full house REAL BP or nothing!!!!

 

Of course most aren't like this, but some are. Just look at any BP discussion.

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973
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4 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Do you realise that real BP is classified as an explosive and as such is subjected to much more stringent requirements with regard to transportation and storage compared to Subs which are classified as a propellant.

 

Did you consider that maybe folks use Subs because that's all they can get??

 

Some cities won't allow real BP into their cities...

 

Phantom

 

1. Yes

2. Yes

 

At no point have I ever said subs should not be allowed. I also don't believe subs give an advantage. I believe some folks think subs are better; I do not 

 

APP generates too much smoke that hangs in the air worse than real BP.

 

777 is too hot, more recoil.

 

Pyrodex just sucks, it stinks and you better clean as soon as the match is over.

 

Never shot Black MZ.

 

IF I lived in one of those places that didn't allow real BP I'm not sure what I'd do; probably shoot smokeless.

 

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25 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

That wasn't the point.

 

An example to make my point: folks say "come to the Dark Side"... Pard says ok!! Tells the same folks that he/she shot their first BP match and had a blast and the 777 worked great!!!

 

Response... Well...ya didn't really shoot BP than...777 isn't the same... It's full house REAL BP or nothing!!!!

 

Of course most aren't like this, but some are. Just look at any BP discussion.

 

With all due respect,  I think you are blowing this out of proportion and putting words in people’s mouths.  

 

As you well know from previous posts, I don’t like subs and would be happy if they were banned (especially for long range side matches).  But,

1) That is my personal opinion, one I doubt is shared by many.

2) I don’t attack people for using subs.  First because it’s a dick move and second because it would drive people away from shooting BP. 

3) This all boils down to what the rules are for this sport.  People argue for rule changes all the time.  Most of them never go anywhere and I doubt seriously that the BP rules are going to change any time soon.

 

In the end, we all get to do what we want and play the game as we like (within the rules).  The birds of a feather will flock together and that is just fine.  What those flocks think of each other is pretty irrelevant as long as they respect the right of the other flocks to exist.  (I think I have tortured that metaphor enough).

 

Again, just my opinion.

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Well Silly Me ,,,, I thought this was a Thread asking "What OUR preference is Real Black or Subs"

I stated that I use Goex in 3F form That is my Preference  what I did not state is My reasons Why ...

I have Tried Pyrodex in Muzzle loader in .45, .50, .54 and .58 Calibers , C&B revolvers in .36 and .44  and have found that Goex gives better more consistant  Ballistic results and at least in my guns better groups ...  In C&B guns I found it gave hangfires and misfires something Real Black does not do ...

I used to shoot Long Range Buffalo Matches (1,000 Yards ) with my .58 caliber Front Stuffer using 610 gr. minnies and Large charges of Powder ...

We shot at a life size Buff and with Pyrodez my best was 3 hits out of 10 shots , with the very best Black ( Curtis & Harvey ) I often got 10 for 10 in hits ...

And On my best match day scored 9 out of 10 in the "30 inch Super Kill zone" with the last round 2 inches out of the Super kill Zone , but still a solid hit ...

So My Choice is to use Real Black Powder ,,,, It doesn't need to be yours ,,, or anyone else's ....

With that .58 I got 35 shots per pound of powder and over the past 45 years I have burned thousands of pounds of black ...

 

Jabez Cowboy

 

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I ain't gonna stir this bubbling pot, no sirree.  

 

Just one thing to say:

 

I like real black for the smell!  Swiss is the most piquant.   Goex has that peppery finish.

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Only ever use real BP  when not shooting smokeless..I have a 44.40 outfit & honestly they are much cleaner than some of the smokeless powders, a quick pull thru & wipe over & good to go. I always use smokeless bullets with a lube biscuit, ain't as yet ever had a problem. Tried that Black MZ stuff & it's sittin in the cupboard'..might lay it on the ground one day & burn it !! 

Got hold of some 40 year old  blasting powder [ 50 lb ] for a carton of beer..gunna wet it up & crush it down finer..have already tried it so won't need powder for a while !!!

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Well, like several others I shoot a mix. 2f goex in my shotgun and app in my rifle and pistols. I use 1.5 Swiss in bptr.  I like how app meters in my progressive and clean up is easy.  I use 3f goex when I shoot my cap guns. 

Shoot what you like as life is too short to bicker about it. 

 

Gringo

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I typically shoot smokeless, but, about 4 to 5 times a year, I get a wild hair up my you-know-what and must make smoke and flames!  I am in the "real" Black Powder camp and use Goex 3f for 45/70, 45 Colt, 12 gauge and my recently aquired cap & ball pistols. :)

 

Shooting cap & ball is a real Hoot!:D

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12 hours ago, Dutch Wheeler said:

I typically shoot smokeless, but, about 4 to 5 times a year, I get a wild hair up my you-know-what and must make smoke and flames!  I am in the "real" Black Powder camp and use Goex 3f for 45/70, 45 Colt, 12 gauge and my recently aquired cap & ball pistols. :)

 

Shooting cap & ball is a real Hoot!:D

Get yourself a single shot rifle so you can shoot the Plainsman side match.  You are almost equipped right now.  BTW, I prefer real black powder in cap and ball revolvers.

Edited by Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971
spelling
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I have burned many pounds of GOEX and Pyrodex sense the 1970s. Both are predictable and reliable. Goex is more consistent and produces better accuracy for me. I have tried APP and a couple jugs of Black MZ and found them to be much more energetic than BP or Pyrodex. I would not use APP or Black MZ in an antique firearm. I have not tried Tripple 7.

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Real. Easy to clean, love the smell, and it's "true" old west IMHO. ;)

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Howdy

 

I only shoot real Black Powder in CAS.

 

Yes, there is a little bit of snobbishness involved. There, I said it.

 

A few simple facts:

 

Yes, real Black Powder is classified by the BTAF as an explosive, the substitutes are not. They are classified no different than regular Smokeless propellants.

 

This means different storage requirements for Black Powder than for the subs. Not so much an issue for the individual shooter, but it does make a difference when you are looking to buy some. Many municipalities, and municipal fire departments impose more stringent storage requirements on businesses that sell powder. Some shops just don't want to deal with the more stringent requirements, so they don't sell real Black Powder while they have no difficulty selling Smokeless or the subs.

 

Case in point: I used to buy a few pounds at a time of Black Powder at a shop about an hour away from where I live. That was the closest shop to me that carried it. I didn't mind the drive, there was usually something interesting to see in the store anyway. A few years ago they screwed up their paperwork and the BATF said they were going to have to build a new powder magazine further away from the road in order to keep selling real BP. The shop stopped selling real BP, although they continue to sell Smokeless as well as the subs, because of the less stringent storage requirements.

 

So right there is a good reason to shoot the subs instead of real BP. Simply easier to find locally.

 

The nearest place I can buy real BP now is an hour and a half away, and their prices are outrageous.

 

Like many others, I now go in halves with a pal and we buy real BP, Schuetzen to be specific, in 25 pound lots from one of the on line vendors. Much cheaper than driving an hour and a half to buy a few pounds at a time.

 

Yes, I loaded up a box of 38 S&W a bunch of years ago with APP because I could not find any bullets available that had a big enough lube groove for real BP. So I loaded up a box to shoot in an antique S&W Top Break.

 

Yes, I used to use regular hard cast smokeless bullets with real BP. I had to melt the Smokeless lube out of the lube grooves and pan lube with a BP compatible lube. It worked OK for my pistols, but my rifle would develop a hard, crusty fouling the last 6" or so of the bore because the bullets ran out of lube. This ruined accuracy until I swabbed my bore out about halfway through a match. Yes, I tried Lube Cookies, and every other conceivable gimmick to load regular hard cast bullets. Eventually I was putting in cardboard card over the powder, a Lube Cookie, then another card to keep the cookie from sticking to the base of the bullet. Way too much work. Then I discovered Big Lube bullets and have been using them ever since. No more wads or cookies, I simply seat the bullet on top of the powder, compressing about 1/16" - 1/8" when the bullet is seated. No, this does not distort the base of the bullet and result in poor accuracy. At least not that I can determine.

 

I used to cast my own Big Lube bullets, even designed one that is a standard now. These days I place an order with Springfield Slim once a year for a year's worth of bullets. 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, and 38-40.

 

Yes, these bullets are more expensive than typical hard cast bullets. I justify it by not practicing, so I don't have to use as many bullets as those guys who do practice.

 

Why don't I just use the subs?

 

Snob appeal.

 

There, I said it again.

 

Do I care what anybody else uses in their loads?

 

Nope, as long as they meet the minimum smoke requirement.

Edited by Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283
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My first foray into the darkside was with Pyrodex as it was available locally and I had yet to discover Big Lube bullets.  It worked ok but I wasn't thrilled with it using smokeless bullets.  I switched to 777 and liked how it meters, big smoke, and it works well with smokeless lube.  Clean up was easier too but I always had a crud ring about 5-7" from the chamber.  I noticed that anomaly with the muzzle loader using 777, even with SPG lubed bullets.

 

It was about this time I discovered night shooting with the Dammit Gang in Norco.  Only real BP will make flames so I started down that rabbit hole.  The flames were great, the smell was real but clean up was tougher since I was still using up my smokeless bullets and oil so the barrels were really crusty. 

 

It was shortly after that that I met the infamous Howdy Doody and was educated on lubes and cleaning/lubing products.  Howdy likes Ballistol for pancakes but I found it to work great as a firearms lube.  I also found Big Lube bullets and now only use real BP in everything.  

 

I shoot full case loads and heavier bullets with no fillers in 38WCF, 44WCF, 45 Colt, 45/70, 32 SPL, .36 Navy, 12 ga (50-84grs), and 10 ga (85-150grs).

 

I buy Big Lube bullets from Springfield Slim once a year, or as needed, and pick them up on a shooting day at Coyote Valley.

 

I order 10lbs of BP at a time, usually Grafs house brand or Olde Eynsford to spread out the hazmat fees.  I load all my empties in a couple of days so my storage limit of 5lbs is met.

 

Am I a BP snob these days?  Well, maybe :lol: but I won't ridicule anyone for using what works for them.   

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Whew... what a lot of hot air and smoke being expelled... 

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Ballistol and pancakes?

 

:o

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5 minutes ago, Dantankerous said:

Ballistol and pancakes?

 

:o

That's what he told me :lol:

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15 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

Ballistol and pancakes?

 

:o

 

It's best on pancakes if served warm!;)

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REAL BP!!!!! IT'S THE  :  FLAMES... BOOM... and SMOKE..... for me......

The subs I tried were ok, but not the real deal. BP takes a LOT more time and dedication, not that I mind, but I think that it's certainly worth it. Yes you can buy BP loaded ammo (I think) and not have the pleasure of reloading, and take a lot of the work out of it. That said, I like reloading ,esp. with Real BP . More time consuming, caution, and other things but, WAY more satisfying where you pull the trigger , see, feel and hear the BOOM. When Utah Bob was shooting with us here in Florida he loaded a case full of real BP in his short little .45's. The concussion would almost blow your hat off if you stood too close. Miss those days.

Also my late good friend and PARD Buffalo Brady caught the berm on fire one dry day while shooting REAL BP. Can't do that with the subs.  So to all the dedicated REAL BP shooters out there , may the BOOM be with you.

A big thank you to Driftwood Johnson , Abilene and others for their articles and writings.

 

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I shoot the real stuff for cowboy and smokeless for WB.  The cowboy guns that I have bought new (all 38WCF) have never seen smokeless powder.  If they did, they probably wouldn't work any more from the shock!:P

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41 minutes ago, German Jim said:

I shoot the real stuff for cowboy and smokeless for WB.  The cowboy guns that I have bought new (all 38WCF) have never seen smokeless powder.  If they did, they probably wouldn't work any more from the shock!:P

 

41 minutes ago, German Jim said:

I shoot the real stuff for cowboy and smokeless for WB.  The cowboy guns that I have bought new (all 38WCF) have never seen smokeless powder.  If they did, they probably wouldn't work any more from the shock!:P

Long live the 38WCF, my favorite.

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I run the holy black through everything. Goex is what i've always found readily available near me. I've never ran any other brand with the exception of my granddads home brewed BP and now i'm making my own also. Someone gave me a bottle of pyrodex once. I loaded a box of shotshells with it. Didnt care for it, it smelled funny. Still got more than half a bottle left. 

I like a nice light load shooting duelist. In my 45's I run 20gr of FFFg topped off with a dry wad and grease cookie to fill the case and a 200 gr RNFP. Shotshells i'm running 40gr FFg and 7/8 oz shot. 

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I've shot Goex, Trip 7, and Black MZ. Liked them all but for me it simply came down to price and availability. I can drive 5 minutes to the local Sportsmans and pick up MZ for $9.99 / bottle while Trip 7 is ~ $27.00 and I would have to order real black powder which would involve shipping and Haz Mat. I'll take the path of least resistance. As far as what anyone else is shooting as long as they're making smoke I'm all for it.

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Been shooting Real BP since I was 7 or 8. Switched to Pyrodex cause its all anyone carried locally. Now I'm shooting Grafs 2 and 3F BP, buy it 5 pounds at a time. I've been using regular lubed bullets but am about to try BP lube.

I havent shot a whole match with BP (Except shotgun) but I've done several stages with zero issues.

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