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46 minutes ago, PECOS PETE, SASS#16437 said:

The confusing issue is that you hit the right type target so no miss. This, to me, has always seemed like someone in Washington came up with this. What happened to failure to engage ?

 

Please explain how that concept is "confusing".

 

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6 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Please explain how that concept is "confusing".

 

I'd like to know too!

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16 hours ago, PECOS PETE, SASS#16437 said:

The confusing issue is that you hit the right type target so no miss. This, to me, has always seemed like someone in Washington came up with this. What happened to failure to engage ?

Howdy,

Pull up the Shooters Handbook listed on the home page of the SASS website and view the "Miss Flow Chart" on page 41. Also, look up definitions of "Failure to Engage", "Miss" & "Procedural" in "Section 9 - Glossary of Terms" beginning on page 43.

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If there was not some "confusion" this thread would not be on it's second page and ones similar would not keep appearing . My use of failure to engage was meant to refer to  not shooting at the bonus target, sorry for wording.

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When the OP states a miss on the bonus is a miss, and then the ruling is that it's a procedural, not a miss, there's lots of room to be confused.

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I don't think the confusion is in our rule/guidelines but rather in the manner which

the stage writer stated the bonus requirements.

 

A miss is a miss, period.   Regardless of whether a target warrants a bonus or not.   BUT, because

this particular miss (the 10th round not hitting the bonus target), it hit another rifle target, which

became a 'P'.    

 

ANYTIME we shoot at a rifle target and hit them in the wrong sequence, our rules don't penalize us

for missing the correct target   PLUS also penalizing us for hitting the wrong target.   Our rules

only allow for one penalty, which is the 'P'.   Which is the same as this particular scenario.

 

The only 'extra' non-penalty incurred on this stage was that the bonus wasn't earned, therefore creating

15 seconds of time added to the shooters stage run.    I call this a '15 second OOPS bonus'.   Some folks

would refer to it as the 'Ah PooPoo' bonus, if you know what I mean..... :o

 

As with most shooting 'P's that we earn, we would have been better off just missing the target

for 5 second penalty rather than 10 seconds.

 

..........Widder

  

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Agreed

 

It is unlikely (based on stated facts) that the shooter "refused" to shoot at the bonus target. Unless you can prove otherwise, benefit of doubt goes to the shooter. I hate to 'assume', but how many times have we lost count or lost our place in target order? I'd assume this shooter just ran away with a happy rifle and ran out of ammo to shoot at the bonus.

 

If he missed the last shot, but was aiming at the wrong target, is it a 'P' or a 'miss'? Only if you can prove where he was aiming and his 'intent'.

 

 

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49 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said:

Agreed

 

It is unlikely (based on stated facts) that the shooter "refused" to shoot at the bonus target. Unless you can prove otherwise, benefit of doubt goes to the shooter. I hate to 'assume', but how many times have we lost count or lost our place in target order? I'd assume this shooter just ran away with a happy rifle and ran out of ammo to shoot at the bonus.

 

If he missed the last shot, but was aiming at the wrong target, is it a 'P' or a 'miss'? Only if you can prove where he was aiming and his 'intent'.

 

 

Doesn't matter his intent. I've gotten confused on target order and earned a P. I've also missed the intended target and hit the wrong one and earned a P. Targets for the same firearm hit out of order is a P regardless of the reason.

 

I think people are getting confused because OP calls the last target the bonus target. Its still a rifle target.

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2 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

When the OP states a miss on the bonus is a miss, and then the ruling is that it's a procedural, not a miss, there's lots of room to be confused.

Stage instructions/ and subsequent scoring are NOT a stew.

They are individual directions/ actions to specific ends.

And the specific instruction/ action only applies that specific result.

 

Engage rifle targets with NINE rounds.

 

THEN engage the "specified" bonus target (also a rifle target) with the 10th round.

A miss on the "specified" rifle target is scored as a miss.

This statement is unnecessary and does not change anything as it is understood that missing ANY rifle (or pistol) target (in the absence of a statement to the contrary) is always scored as a miss.

 

A hit on the "specified" rifle target will earn a 5 second bonus.  

This is the ONLY statement in the stage instructions that changes any scoring convention.

 

Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets with the first nine rounds.

Shooter struck correct type (rifle) target with 10th round.

CLEAN

 

Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets in the incorrect order.

Shot 10 did not strike the target specified for shot 10.

PROCEDURAL

 

Shooter did not strike specified target to earn bonus.

NO BONUS

 

There are no changes in normal scoring convention: 

A hit on a correct type target is a hit

A hit on targets out of order is a procedural.

 

The only addition/ change to scoring is the 5 second bonus for hitting a specific target with a specific round.

 

No confusion.

Next shooter.

 

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30 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Stage instructions/ and subsequent scoring are NOT a stew.

They are individual directions/ actions to specific ends.

And the specific instruction/ action only applies that specific result.

 

Engage rifle targets with NINE rounds.

 

THEN engage the "specified" bonus target (also a rifle target) with the 10th round.

A miss on the "specified" rifle target is scored as a miss.

This statement is unnecessary and does not change anything as it is understood that missing ANY rifle (or pistol) target (in the absence of a statement to the contrary) is always scored as a miss.

 

A hit on the "specified" rifle target will earn a 5 second bonus.  

This is the ONLY statement in the stage instructions that changes any scoring convention.

 

Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets with the first nine rounds.

Shooter struck correct type (rifle) target with 10th round.

CLEAN

 

Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets in the incorrect order.

Shot 10 did not strike the target specified for shot 10.

PROCEDURAL

 

Shooter did not strike specified target to earn bonus.

NO BONUS

 

There are no changes in normal scoring convention: 

A hit on a correct type target is a hit

A hit on targets out of order is a procedural.

 

The only addition/ change to scoring is the 5 second bonus for hitting a specific target with a specific round.

 

No confusion.

Next shooter.

 

Thumbs up.gif

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2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Stage instructions/ and subsequent scoring are NOT a stew.

They are individual directions/ actions to specific ends.

And the specific instruction/ action only applies that specific result.

 

Engage rifle targets with NINE rounds.

 

THEN engage the "specified" bonus target (also a rifle target) with the 10th round.

A miss on the "specified" rifle target is scored as a miss.

This statement is unnecessary and does not change anything as it is understood that missing ANY rifle (or pistol) target (in the absence of a statement to the contrary) is always scored as a miss.

 

A hit on the "specified" rifle target will earn a 5 second bonus.  

This is the ONLY statement in the stage instructions that changes any scoring convention.

 

Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets with the first nine rounds.

Shooter struck correct type (rifle) target with 10th round.

CLEAN

 

Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets in the incorrect order.

Shot 10 did not strike the target specified for shot 10.

PROCEDURAL

 

Shooter did not strike specified target to earn bonus.

NO BONUS

 

There are no changes in normal scoring convention: 

A hit on a correct type target is a hit

A hit on targets out of order is a procedural.

 

The only addition/ change to scoring is the 5 second bonus for hitting a specific target with a specific round.

 

No confusion.

Next shooter.

 

 That was more in depth and eloquent than what I said, but same point. I like it when you and I agree. Whole lot less pages that way, but not near as fun!

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28 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 That was more in depth and eloquent than what I said, but same point. I like it when you and I agree. Whole lot less pages that way, but not near as fun!

Oh, I can help with that...………..  Um...……. I still don't get why its not a miss and a P----Go ahead, keep debating!:ph34r:

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52 minutes ago, Smoky Pistols said:

Oh, I can help with that...………..  Um...……. I still don't get why its not a miss and a P----Go ahead, keep debating!:ph34r:

I like where your mind is at!

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1 hour ago, Smoky Pistols said:

Oh, I can help with that...………..  Um...……. I still don't get why its not a miss and a P----Go ahead, keep debating!:ph34r:

Was it a rifle round?

Yes

 

Did the round hit a rifle target?

Yes

 

Was it the correct rifle target?

No

 

"P"

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Was it a rifle round?

Yes

 

Did the round hit a rifle target?

Yes

 

Was it the correct rifle target?

No

 

"P"

 

 

But, but, but...

 

 

It wasn't a rifle target it was a bonus target :P

 

 

 

 

Yes, I know the correct call is a P and only a P.  

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9 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

When the OP states a miss on the bonus is a miss, and then the ruling is that it's a procedural, not a miss, there's lots of room to be confused.

 

This is where the confusion sets in fer me.. :mellow:

(But hey I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer..:D)

That one statement " a miss on the bonus target is a miss"

He missed the bonus target..:rolleyes:

Confusion sets in on this ol noggin'..:unsure:

Creeker gave me the answer I could wrap this ol' noggin around.. :huh:

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' Thanks Creeker..:):)

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5 hours ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

 

This is where the confusion sets in fer me.. :mellow:

(But hey I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer..:D)

That one statement " a miss on the bonus target is a miss"

He missed the bonus target..:rolleyes:

Confusion sets in on this ol noggin'..:unsure:

Creeker gave me the answer I could wrap this ol' noggin around.. :huh:

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' Thanks Creeker..:):)

Means that if you actually miss the bonus and your buddy doesn't, he now picked up 10 seconds.

Edited by Phantom, SASS #54973

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