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Stage instructions said "place nine rounds on the rifle targets and THEN place the 10th round on the bonus target for a 5 second bonus (A miss on the bonus target is a miss)."

 

Shooter loses count and places all ten rounds on the rifle targets. I don't wanna' muddy up the water with "my" thoughts so what say you my fellow arm chair RO's? 

 

Last I'm not complaining about the stage and the folks worked hard to put the match together so please let's not drag it though the dirt...…..lol. I just want to know so if it were to happen again we would know we made the right call.....or better yet help folks to write stage instructions more clearly to simplify the stages. You just about have to have a legal team to pull that off sometimes. 

Edited by Cowboy Junky

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Just a P.    Here's one place where the "P cannot cause a miss" would apply.  Shooter did not MISS while shooting the bonus target.   Shooter P'd during the sequence.

 

Good luck, GJ

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Did not hit bonus target.

No bonus.

 

All rifle rounds hit a designated rifle target.

No misses.

 

Tenth rifle struck a target out of order.

Procedural.

 

Next shooter.

 

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I say 'P' only and NO BONUS.

 

 

..........Widder

 

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P No Bonus.

 

SHB p 22

10-second penalties include “Procedural” (P) penalties and Minor Safety Violations (MSV). Procedural errors are simple, unintentional mistakes made as a result of “brain fade” or confusion, where the competitor engages the stage in a way other than how it was intended. Procedural penalties cannot exceed one per stage. Minor Safety Violations (MSV) are lesser safety infractions that do not directly endanger persons.

Procedural (P) infractions include:

- Failure to attempt to fire a firearm, engage a prop, or perform a stage maneuver.

- Shooting targets in the wrong order.

- Engaging the stage in the wrong order.

- Use of illegally acquired ammunition.

- Not returning revolvers to leather (unless otherwise specified).

- First offense in the same match for “shooting out of category.”

Edited by Charlie T Waite
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The call from some previous theads, as I remember, will be a miss (10'th shot missed the correct target) and a P for shooting the other rifle targets out of sequence.  But,  that 10'th shot could hit the pistol targets, hit the ground, hit the berm and it's only a miss.  However, if it hits a rifle target, it's a additional P.  

 

I think it should only be a miss.  The shooter missed the bonus target.

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1 hour ago, Null N. Void said:

The call from some previous theads, as I remember, will be a miss (10'th shot missed the correct target) and a P for shooting the other rifle targets out of sequence.  But,  that 10'th shot could hit the pistol targets, hit the ground, hit the berm and it's only a miss.  However, if it hits a rifle target, it's a additional P.  

 

I think it should only be a miss.  The shooter missed the bonus target.

And hit a correct type of target that should not have been hit.

 

That's a P.

 

Easy Peasy.

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Well, there are 10 rifle targets with the last one including a 5 second bonus. A miss on any of the 10 rifle targets would be a miss. All 10 rifle shots hit rifle targets but not in the correct order. Procedural would be the call.

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So we have a 10 second bonus target...

 

So I agree with Creeker.

 

The shooter shoots the sequence out of order - a P was earned.

They did not get the bonus.

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P and a Miss.

Why?
The stage descriptions state, "A miss on the Bonus, is a MISS".

Doesn't matter if he hit the dirt, the squirrel, or the dump target, a Miss on the Bonus target is a MISS.

Also, the P for not shooting the stage correctly.

 

 

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Just my observation, but there are some very credible RO's who are making

different calls on this WTC thread.

 

It will be interesting when PWB chimes in.

 

EDIT:  I noticed that PWB has already checked a few 'like' boxes on some of the

post.

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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If on the instructions it was written it that it was to be a miss then it trumps the flow chart.  If it wasn't written the it's just a p.  Local range rules, same as plant and poke

Edited by evil dogooder

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Since the stage instructions called for nine rifle rounds on three targets in a progressive regressive sweep r1 r2r2 r3r3r3 r2r2 r1 and then place the tenth round on a bonus target quite a distance from the rifle targets. In this situation there is no chance that a shooter could hit the rifle target while engaging the bonus target. Since the shooter put ten rounds on the rifle targets I would assess a P.  No miss no bonus. 

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Quote

 A MISS is defined as the failure to hit the appropriate target type using the appropriate type of firearm and includes:

- Each missed target.

- Each unfired round.

- Inadvertently left rounds in a revolver are misses, unless there is an unfired round under the hammer, in which case it is a Stage DQ.  

- Each target hit with an incorrect firearm – either intentionally or by mistake.

- Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition. 

 

 

Quote

Procedural (P) infractions include:

... 

- Shooting targets in the wrong order. 

 

SHB p.22

 

All of the targets that were HIT were designated RIFLE targets.

The targets were HIT in the wrong order.

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I read some of these responses... And it scares me.

 

:blink:

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Not trying to hijack thread .BUT had same senerio. Same thing shooter lost count. BUT shooter missed LAST shot. 

Does he still get the P along with miss?

 

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46 minutes ago, High Plains Hud SASS#64232 said:

Not trying to hijack thread .BUT had same senerio. Same thing shooter lost count. BUT shooter missed LAST shot. 

Does he still get the P along with miss?

 

No that's where the miss can't cause a P. That's when you are better off missing...…...lol

Edited by Cowboy Junky
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I avoid this because it always causes problems.  It doesn't matter what PWB says, we always get into the discussion on whether it's a miss, a procedural or a miss and a procedural with good reasoning on all sides and it can really slow a stage down.

 

I'll write the stage to put 9 rounds on the first three targets, and, if the shooter chooses, shoot the 10'th round on any of the first 3 targets or on the 4'th target for a bonus.  That way, if the shooter doesn't want to engage a hard target for any reason, they can shoot the first three rifle targets.  If a shooter gets confused and shoots 10 on 3, it's not a problem. 

 

If the Stage Writer wants to force a hard shot, I suggest you do something like 3-3-3-1 and don't say anything about a bonus.  It's just 10 rifle shots.  If you miss, or hit out of sequence, it's clear what you did.

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22 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

Stage instructions said "place nine rounds on the rifle targets and THEN place the 10th round on the bonus target for a 5 second bonus (A miss on the bonus target is a miss)."

 

Shooter loses count and places all ten rounds on the rifle targets. 

 

Reckon I'm the dense one here.. :huh:

Stage instructions clearly states "a miss on the bonus target is a miss" = MISS

Shooter loses count and places all 10 rounds on the rifle targets = PROCEDURAL 

 

shooterer could have done a reload for the bonus target??

This doesn't seem like a typical "miss causes a P.."

 

Shooter created his own P.. Placing 10 rounds on rifle targets..

Shooter did NOT  shoot bonus target?? 

Shooter didn't follow separate stage instructions of

"miss on bonus target is a miss"

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' yeah I know I'm dense already.. :rolleyes: but??

Edited by Rance - SASS # 54090
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Hey Rance.

 

Here is how 'I' look at it.

 

By earning a Miss, the shooter would have had to miss any rifle target with a rifle shot,

regardless of it being 1st shot, last shot, or any shot in between.

And of course, shooting any of them 'out of order' earns a 'P'.

 

When the stage writer interjected the 'Bonus' as part of the scenario, it did not change the

definition of the Miss/Procedural rules that we play by.   It merely became a Bonus target.

The stage writer didn't have to add the 'Miss' factor but probably added it because

in many situations such as this, stage writers will write the Bonus target with an exclusion

of "if you miss it, it won't be counted as a miss but a hit is a bonus".  This is usually done

to eliminate the 10 second swing in time.

 

Anyhow, I don't see where there should have been any confusion as to the call.

The shooter hit a rifle plate with the rifle..... out of order.    No miss, but a big ole 'P'.

 

Also consider this:   if the shooter had earned a 'P' and a 'Miss' on this target, PLUS did not

get the bonus, that would have been a 20 second difference in his/her time from a shooter

who hit the bonus.    OUCH!

 

P.S. - this can be a good discussion to help ALL of us understand our rules better

and hopefully won't become a shouting match for anyone.

 

Best regards

 

..........Widder

 

Edited by Widder, SASS #59054
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So what would have been the call if the shooter (in his understanding that he had to shoot the bonus target) loaded another round and hit the bonus target?

 

Thanks,

 

Chili

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"P"

The stage calls for 9 shots + 1 bonus.

 

Can you ever re-load because you missed a target (except for shotgun when directed to "shoot till down")?

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1 hour ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

So what would have been the call if the shooter (in his understanding that he had to shoot the bonus target) loaded another round and hit the bonus target?

 

In addition to what the call is so far, after ten rounds,  (a P and no bonus points)

 

 

That would be: A Miss for round #11, plus the clock time it took to do so, and still no bonus point earned.    "Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition."  - Shooter was not allowed to fire an 11th round 

 

Good luck, GJ

Edited by Garrison Joe, SASS #60708

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1 hour ago, Chili Pepper Pete 11917 said:

So what would have been the call if the shooter (in his understanding that he had to shoot the bonus target) loaded another round and hit the bonus target?

 

 

The initial Procedural for 10 hits on the first 3 targets (contrary to the stage instructions)

+ the wasted time to reload the 11th round (which would be another "P" if multiples were allowed)
+ no bonus.

 

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6 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

That would be: A Miss for round 11, plus the clock time it took to do so    "Each target hit with illegally acquired ammunition."    - Shooter was not allowed to fire an 11th round 

 

The "use of illegally acquired ammunition" would not apply to a reload unless the ammo was brought to the stage in an illegal/unapproved manner.
REF:
SHB p.44

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40 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said:

"P"

The stage calls for 9 shots + 1 bonus.

 

Can you ever re-load because you missed a target (except for shotgun when directed to "shoot till down")?

 

YES...under very specific circumstances,
REF:
SHB p.17

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The confusing issue is that you hit the right type target so no miss. This, to me, has always seemed like someone in Washington came up with this. What happened to failure to engage ?

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10 minutes ago, PECOS PETE, SASS#16437 said:

The confusing issue is that you hit the right type target so no miss. This, to me, has always seemed like someone in Washington came up with this. What happened to failure to engage ?

Quote

Failure to Engage A “failure to engage” penalty occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage and is not assessed simply because a competitor “makes a mistake.” A “failure to engage” applies only to non-shooting situations such as refusing to rope a steer, throw a stick of dynamite, or otherwise make an attempt to complete any other non-shooting procedure written within the stage instructions. In such case, a 30-second “failure to engage” penalty is assessed in addition to any penalties for misses, procedurals, or minor safety infractions-.

I'm going to assume you mean those idiots in DC, not the fine folks of Washington State... :P

Edited by Griff

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1 hour ago, Blast Masterson said:

 would you consider this as one of those circumstances?

 

Absolutely NOT.

Did you read the referenced section?

It does not apply to the OP.

Another example would be stage instructions allowing a shooter to "reload as necessary" (e.g. regarding rifle and or revolver KD targets).

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