PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 46 minutes ago, PECOS PETE, SASS#16437 said: The confusing issue is that you hit the right type target so no miss. This, to me, has always seemed like someone in Washington came up with this. What happened to failure to engage ? Please explain how that concept is "confusing". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 6 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Please explain how that concept is "confusing". I'd like to know too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Shooter's manual says "a Failure to Engage applies to non-shooting situations". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keystone, SASS # 47578 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 16 hours ago, PECOS PETE, SASS#16437 said: The confusing issue is that you hit the right type target so no miss. This, to me, has always seemed like someone in Washington came up with this. What happened to failure to engage ? Howdy, Pull up the Shooters Handbook listed on the home page of the SASS website and view the "Miss Flow Chart" on page 41. Also, look up definitions of "Failure to Engage", "Miss" & "Procedural" in "Section 9 - Glossary of Terms" beginning on page 43. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PECOS PETE, SASS#16437 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 If there was not some "confusion" this thread would not be on it's second page and ones similar would not keep appearing . My use of failure to engage was meant to refer to not shooting at the bonus target, sorry for wording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null N. Void Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 When the OP states a miss on the bonus is a miss, and then the ruling is that it's a procedural, not a miss, there's lots of room to be confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 I don't think the confusion is in our rule/guidelines but rather in the manner which the stage writer stated the bonus requirements. A miss is a miss, period. Regardless of whether a target warrants a bonus or not. BUT, because this particular miss (the 10th round not hitting the bonus target), it hit another rifle target, which became a 'P'. ANYTIME we shoot at a rifle target and hit them in the wrong sequence, our rules don't penalize us for missing the correct target PLUS also penalizing us for hitting the wrong target. Our rules only allow for one penalty, which is the 'P'. Which is the same as this particular scenario. The only 'extra' non-penalty incurred on this stage was that the bonus wasn't earned, therefore creating 15 seconds of time added to the shooters stage run. I call this a '15 second OOPS bonus'. Some folks would refer to it as the 'Ah PooPoo' bonus, if you know what I mean..... As with most shooting 'P's that we earn, we would have been better off just missing the target for 5 second penalty rather than 10 seconds. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blast Masterson Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Agreed It is unlikely (based on stated facts) that the shooter "refused" to shoot at the bonus target. Unless you can prove otherwise, benefit of doubt goes to the shooter. I hate to 'assume', but how many times have we lost count or lost our place in target order? I'd assume this shooter just ran away with a happy rifle and ran out of ammo to shoot at the bonus. If he missed the last shot, but was aiming at the wrong target, is it a 'P' or a 'miss'? Only if you can prove where he was aiming and his 'intent'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 49 minutes ago, Blast Masterson said: Agreed It is unlikely (based on stated facts) that the shooter "refused" to shoot at the bonus target. Unless you can prove otherwise, benefit of doubt goes to the shooter. I hate to 'assume', but how many times have we lost count or lost our place in target order? I'd assume this shooter just ran away with a happy rifle and ran out of ammo to shoot at the bonus. If he missed the last shot, but was aiming at the wrong target, is it a 'P' or a 'miss'? Only if you can prove where he was aiming and his 'intent'. Doesn't matter his intent. I've gotten confused on target order and earned a P. I've also missed the intended target and hit the wrong one and earned a P. Targets for the same firearm hit out of order is a P regardless of the reason. I think people are getting confused because OP calls the last target the bonus target. Its still a rifle target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Null N. Void said: When the OP states a miss on the bonus is a miss, and then the ruling is that it's a procedural, not a miss, there's lots of room to be confused. Stage instructions/ and subsequent scoring are NOT a stew. They are individual directions/ actions to specific ends. And the specific instruction/ action only applies that specific result. Engage rifle targets with NINE rounds. THEN engage the "specified" bonus target (also a rifle target) with the 10th round. A miss on the "specified" rifle target is scored as a miss. This statement is unnecessary and does not change anything as it is understood that missing ANY rifle (or pistol) target (in the absence of a statement to the contrary) is always scored as a miss. A hit on the "specified" rifle target will earn a 5 second bonus. This is the ONLY statement in the stage instructions that changes any scoring convention. Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets with the first nine rounds. Shooter struck correct type (rifle) target with 10th round. CLEAN Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets in the incorrect order. Shot 10 did not strike the target specified for shot 10. PROCEDURAL Shooter did not strike specified target to earn bonus. NO BONUS There are no changes in normal scoring convention: A hit on a correct type target is a hit A hit on targets out of order is a procedural. The only addition/ change to scoring is the 5 second bonus for hitting a specific target with a specific round. No confusion. Next shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie T Waite Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 30 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: Stage instructions/ and subsequent scoring are NOT a stew. They are individual directions/ actions to specific ends. And the specific instruction/ action only applies that specific result. Engage rifle targets with NINE rounds. THEN engage the "specified" bonus target (also a rifle target) with the 10th round. A miss on the "specified" rifle target is scored as a miss. This statement is unnecessary and does not change anything as it is understood that missing ANY rifle (or pistol) target (in the absence of a statement to the contrary) is always scored as a miss. A hit on the "specified" rifle target will earn a 5 second bonus. This is the ONLY statement in the stage instructions that changes any scoring convention. Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets with the first nine rounds. Shooter struck correct type (rifle) target with 10th round. CLEAN Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets in the incorrect order. Shot 10 did not strike the target specified for shot 10. PROCEDURAL Shooter did not strike specified target to earn bonus. NO BONUS There are no changes in normal scoring convention: A hit on a correct type target is a hit A hit on targets out of order is a procedural. The only addition/ change to scoring is the 5 second bonus for hitting a specific target with a specific round. No confusion. Next shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said: Stage instructions/ and subsequent scoring are NOT a stew. They are individual directions/ actions to specific ends. And the specific instruction/ action only applies that specific result. Engage rifle targets with NINE rounds. THEN engage the "specified" bonus target (also a rifle target) with the 10th round. A miss on the "specified" rifle target is scored as a miss. This statement is unnecessary and does not change anything as it is understood that missing ANY rifle (or pistol) target (in the absence of a statement to the contrary) is always scored as a miss. A hit on the "specified" rifle target will earn a 5 second bonus. This is the ONLY statement in the stage instructions that changes any scoring convention. Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets with the first nine rounds. Shooter struck correct type (rifle) target with 10th round. CLEAN Shooter struck correct type (rifle) targets in the incorrect order. Shot 10 did not strike the target specified for shot 10. PROCEDURAL Shooter did not strike specified target to earn bonus. NO BONUS There are no changes in normal scoring convention: A hit on a correct type target is a hit A hit on targets out of order is a procedural. The only addition/ change to scoring is the 5 second bonus for hitting a specific target with a specific round. No confusion. Next shooter. That was more in depth and eloquent than what I said, but same point. I like it when you and I agree. Whole lot less pages that way, but not near as fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoky Pistols Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 28 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said: That was more in depth and eloquent than what I said, but same point. I like it when you and I agree. Whole lot less pages that way, but not near as fun! Oh, I can help with that...……….. Um...……. I still don't get why its not a miss and a P----Go ahead, keep debating! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tennessee williams Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 52 minutes ago, Smoky Pistols said: Oh, I can help with that...……….. Um...……. I still don't get why its not a miss and a P----Go ahead, keep debating! I like where your mind is at! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Smoky Pistols said: Oh, I can help with that...……….. Um...……. I still don't get why its not a miss and a P----Go ahead, keep debating! Was it a rifle round? Yes Did the round hit a rifle target? Yes Was it the correct rifle target? No "P" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Was it a rifle round? Yes Did the round hit a rifle target? Yes Was it the correct rifle target? No "P" But, but, but... It wasn't a rifle target it was a bonus target Yes, I know the correct call is a P and only a P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 9 hours ago, Null N. Void said: When the OP states a miss on the bonus is a miss, and then the ruling is that it's a procedural, not a miss, there's lots of room to be confused. This is where the confusion sets in fer me.. (But hey I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer..) That one statement " a miss on the bonus target is a miss" He missed the bonus target.. Confusion sets in on this ol noggin'.. Creeker gave me the answer I could wrap this ol' noggin around.. Rance Thinkin' Thanks Creeker.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 5 hours ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said: This is where the confusion sets in fer me.. (But hey I ain't the sharpest knife in the drawer..) That one statement " a miss on the bonus target is a miss" He missed the bonus target.. Confusion sets in on this ol noggin'.. Creeker gave me the answer I could wrap this ol' noggin around.. Rance Thinkin' Thanks Creeker.. Means that if you actually miss the bonus and your buddy doesn't, he now picked up 10 seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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