Keystone, SASS # 47578 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 One reason I prefer black powder over substitutes is visibility, as substitutes produce a white more obscuring cloud of smoke. Long Range matches aren't exactly rapid fire where obscured visibility is generally a problem. If the volume of smoke was the issue, what was the standard for testing rounds used in competition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 31 minutes ago, Keystone, SASS # 47578 said: One reason I prefer black powder over substitutes is visibility, as substitutes produce a white more obscuring cloud of smoke. Long Range matches aren't exactly rapid fire where obscured visibility is generally a problem. If the volume of smoke was the issue, what was the standard for testing rounds used in competition? Unless the individuals who made the calls of DQ’s respond we may never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 The shooters were using loads of 37 grains FF 777 with a corn meal filler and .405 grain bullet, I’m no expert but that should have produced plenty of smoke. They were told the next day that they were DQ’d because the side match was for real BP only. Quote - Any propellant powder may be used (with the exception smokeless powder is not allowed in the Buffalo Single Shot competition). SHB p.31 (under SECTION 5 - SIDE MATCHES) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shotgun Clay Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 7 minutes ago, Yul Lose said: The shooters were using loads of 37 grains FF 777 with a corn meal filler and .405 grain bullet, I’m no expert but that should have produced plenty of smoke. They were told the next day that they were DQ’d because the side match was for real BP only. Through the miracle of the internet 37 grains of 777 is a over 3 cc in volume. Plenty of smoke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 I predict a significant decline in attendance at this match next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 4 hours ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said: From the Shooters Handbook. BLACKPOWDER SHOOTING CATEGORIES Blackpowder category contestants are expected to understand they will contend with smoke obscured targets. To ensure this, all shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges must produce smoke at least equivalent to a baseline load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of blackpowder (see Blackpowder – Testing section for additional requirements). I believe this was the issue. This rule specifies the smoke equivalent requirement, NOT the powder type ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bearded Wonder Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, Yusta B. said: This rule specifies the smoke equivalent requirement, NOT the powder type ! BLACKPOWDER AMMUNITION- Throughout this handbook, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowdersubstitute such as Pyrodex,777, APP, or comparable propellants intended formuzzle loading firearms. Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibitedas blackpowder substitutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, The Bearded Wonder said: BLACKPOWDER AMMUNITION- Throughout this handbook, blackpowder means blackpowder, or a blackpowdersubstitute such as Pyrodex,777, APP, or comparable propellants intended formuzzle loading firearms. Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibitedas blackpowder substitutes. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sloe Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 48 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said: I predict a significant decline in attendance at this match next year. Perhaps we should get feedback from the club/MD, before we condemn the match. I enjoy this match and look forward to it each year. BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 22 minutes ago, Barry Sloe said: Perhaps we should get feedback from the club/MD, before we condemn the match. I enjoy this match and look forward to it each year. BS I agree also. It’s a fun match but I think it important to know the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Bob Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 46 minutes ago, Yul Lose said: I agree also. It’s a fun match but I think it important to know the rules. Unwritten last minute rules are hard to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Bill Burt Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 9 hours ago, Barry Sloe said: Perhaps we should get feedback from the club/MD, before we condemn the match. I enjoy this match and look forward to it each year. BS I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Unwritten, Unexplained, Last Minute, not until the DAY AFTER are simply unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheatin Charlie Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 Maybe this thread shouldn't fade away until we get some answers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Hangtree Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Cheatin Charlie said: Maybe this thread shouldn't fade away until we get some answers? I agree with that, Charlie. Here's my bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrel Cody Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 1 hour ago, Cheatin Charlie said: Maybe this thread shouldn't fade away until we get some answers? 8 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said: I agree with that, Charlie. Here's my bump. I agree with both of you, but I don't see it happening. We don't know who was running the side match in question, nor do we know if they ever post here. Y'all got any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholla Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 On the face of it, it sure sounds like the people were supposed to win the match didn't, so the rules had to be changed. I would be very upset if that is the case because I believe CAS folks are above that. But there are two sides to each story so I don't want to pile on like the mass media until all the facts are in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheatin Charlie Posted January 23, 2019 Share Posted January 23, 2019 I don't know the answer to that, but one of the reasons given to be a SASS member is that all SASS sanctioned matches would have the same rules. The SASS club should let us know what the rest of the story to set the record straight. Or SASS headquarters should follow up on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Has anyone that was actually at the match contacted the club and asked them?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said: Has anyone that was actually at the match contacted the club and asked them?? Gunrunner Pete did when they DQ’d him. They said no BP subs allowed and the decision was made after the side match was shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colorado Coffinmaker Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Well, now that they have shown themselves to be asinine, perhaps the unwashed masses can decide "after the match was shot" Not to attend their match next year. Vote with your wallet and your FEET Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keystone, SASS # 47578 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Well, it might be a bit unreasonable to suggest the entire match should be avoided due to a seemingly ill advised decision made for the Long Range BP Rifle event. Although, I must admit, their silence is deafening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rye Miles #13621 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 On 1/23/2019 at 5:06 PM, Cheatin Charlie said: Maybe this thread shouldn't fade away until we get some answers? +10000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 I just can't help feeling that there's at least one other side to this story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Although, I must admit, their silence is deafening. Kinda like the NFL’s silence on the very obvious pass interference that wasn’t called late in the Saints Rams game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sloe Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 Bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 I hope that there is some rational explanation... Out of the blue rules after the match has started is not good for our game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Personally, I think bp subs are an abomination and would much rather the rule was changed to ban them (just my opinion) but even I think this is pretty shady. You don’t get to change the rules after the match. Very bad form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sloe Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 I have sent an email to the club and am currently waiting for either a reply or an update on the Wire from the Club. BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 17 hours ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: Personally, I think bp subs are an abomination and would much rather the rule was changed to ban them (just my opinion) but even I think this is pretty shady. You don’t get to change the rules after the match. Very bad form. Please explain the rationale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Coles SASS 1188 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 32 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said: Please explain the rationale. Substitutes don’t shoot like black, they don’t foul like black, they don’t present the same challenges in loading as black, they don’t smell like black, and they don’t smoke like black. In my opinion, the modern subs are a way to get around these things for people who want to compete in the class without doing the work black requires. Having said that, the rules are the rules and my opinion on substitutes is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 1 hour ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: Substitutes don’t shoot like black, they don’t foul like black, they don’t present the same challenges in loading as black, they don’t smell like black, and they don’t smoke like black. In my opinion, the modern subs are a way to get around these things for people who want to compete in the class without doing the work black requires. Having said that, the rules are the rules and my opinion on substitutes is irrelevant to the topic at hand. So you've loaded using BP substitutes...?? And some places don't allow the sale of real BP...so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barry Sloe Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 Update I had a discussion today with 2 of the principles that oversaw the long range side matches. Here's the summary: They received some bad input regarding the use of BP subs. The SASS rules have since been reviewed and they acknowledge that they made a bad call. They are going to retrieve the scores from the long range side match. New award(s) will be made up and sent to those individuals that had originally earned the award. This should bring this to a close. Have a great weekend, BS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said: Update I had a discussion today with 2 of the principles that oversaw the long range side matches. Here's the summary: They received some bad input regarding the use of BP subs. The SASS rules have since been reviewed and they acknowledge that they made a bad call. They are going to retrieve the scores from the long range side match. New award(s) will be made up and sent to those individuals that had originally earned the award. This should bring this to a close. Have a great weekend, BS Guess that's all they can do... Just sux that they didn't get the recognition at the match... I'm surprised that with the officials being told that they made an incorrect call, that they didn't check immediately so that the error could be corrected at the awards. Sorry... Unless I'm missing some info, I'm just not buying the explanation... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 39 minutes ago, Doc Coles SASS 1188 said: Substitutes don’t shoot like black, they don’t foul like black, they don’t present the same challenges in loading as black, they don’t smell like black, and they don’t smoke like black. In my opinion, the modern subs are a way to get around these things for people who want to compete in the class without doing the work black requires. I mostly shoot black because it makes sparks & flame and a satisfying boom different from the subs. There are times I use subs such as when I've run out of BP lubed bullets. Given that I load both, the above statement is baffling to me. What "challenges" and "work" are sub users getting around? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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