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Ruger with a 9mm cylinder


"Big Boston"

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I have a Ruger Blackhawk in 357 and it has an extra 9mm Luger cylinder. Is it legal to shoot 9mm Luger ammo in competition. My thinking was that it would be easier to load a light bullet in the smaller capacity cases. If not legal I was planning on using 38 S&W cases, sized and trimmed to 9mm specs.

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Had one of them ordered through the PX back in 73 .Never came in..

                                                                                                                                      Largo

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1 hour ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Legal in all but Classic Cowboy. And neither cylinder would accommodate 38 S&W cases.

 

 

Thanks all. Especially for the 38 Short Colt tip.

 

I was lead to believe using 38 S&W in the 9mm cylinder was possible. 

 

This from tech help @ Starline brass.  "I can’t see any reason it won’t work. I have talked to a few people who have been using the 38 sw in DA 9mm revolvers with success"

 

 

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21 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

Thanks all. Especially for the 38 Short Colt tip.

 

I was lead to believe using 38 S&W in the 9mm cylinder was possible. 

 

This from tech help @ Starline brass.  "I can’t see any reason it won’t work. I have talked to a few people who have been using the 38 sw in DA 9mm revolvers with success"

 

 

hhhhmmmmmm, 9mm cylinder in Ruger single action variety headspace off of the mouth of the case. I think Starline may be mistaken on this one. .38 S&W has a larger rim and also shoots a .360 diameter bullet traditionally. 

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23 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

Thanks all. Especially for the 38 Short Colt tip.

 

I was lead to believe using 38 S&W in the 9mm cylinder was possible. 

 

This from tech help @ Starline brass.  "I can’t see any reason it won’t work. I have talked to a few people who have been using the 38 sw in DA 9mm revolvers with success"

 

 

It seems like there would be an issue. Rimless cases in revolvers of the past used moon clips so I can't see them interchanging. Right? Rim....rimless. 

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35 minutes ago, "Big Boston" said:

 

Thanks all. Especially for the 38 Short Colt tip.

 

I was lead to believe using 38 S&W in the 9mm cylinder was possible. 

 

This from tech help @ Starline brass.  "I can’t see any reason it won’t work. I have talked to a few people who have been using the 38 sw in DA 9mm revolvers with success"

 

 

 

I don't think so, but send us pictures when you try it.

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58 minutes ago, Cowboy Junky said:

It seems like there would be an issue. Rimless cases in revolvers of the past used moon clips so I can't see them interchanging. Right? Rim....rimless. 

Single action doesn’t need moon clips. Double action, yes. To extract empties. Not necessarily to head space on.

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Thanks again. 

 

As the 9mm Luger does not look like a revolver round, I did want to confirm the legality of using the case. After all you don't usually find 38 S&W cases lying on the ground at the range. 

 

I've researched this pretty extensively, and I'm nearly ready to order some 38 S&W brass. When I rechecked the rules, I couldn't see any rule preventing me from using the 9mm Luger case. It would need a lead bullet and it would be better if it were sized around 358. Here's where the wicket gets a bit sticky. Because the 9mm Luger headspaces on the case mouth, and it is a revolver, the empty and full cases get slammed into the end of the chamber, and this area gets a bit tight. The chamber mouth gets peened and the throat gets pinched a bit. Not a problem with a jacketed bullet, but definitely an issue with an oversized lead bullet. Therefore I'd prefer a case that headspaces on the rim. My search for rimmed 9mm Luger did not bear fruit. 

 

I bought my Ruger BH a couple of years ago, it's been around, it's a 200 th Anniversary convertible model. It had been shot mostly with 9mm Luger. 

 

I tested the revolver with 9mm Luger factory ammo, it shot well. I handloaded up some cast bullet ammo, no sir, that was not a charm. A 356 lead cast bullet down a 358 bore leaves a bit of lead. For this to work, the cast bullet has to be closer to groove diameter. 

 

I believe the 45 Auto Rim/ACP moon clip is fairly well known. The revolver was designed to utilize moon clips, for extraction. It could be fired without the moon clips, but extraction was an issue. When they designed a rimmed 45 ACP case, the rim ended up being a bit thicker than the norm, because the cylinder was designed with moon clips being used, and the moon clip design used a slightly larger than usual gap.

 

The Ruger convertible cylinder was never designed to use moon clips, not from concept, not ever. Extraction is with the ejector rod. However, Ruger did not design a new cylinder for the 9mm Luger. They just chambered and throated the regular cylinder to accommodate the 9mm Luger. And the regular cylinder is not machined for a recessed rim. The 9mm Luger round sticks out of the Ruger cylinder by about the thickness of a normal rim. 

 

So, to prove the concept I decided to do some testing. Before doing any actual shooting I did a bit more research. I checked all the SAAMI specs for 9mm Luger, 357 Mag, 38 Spl, 38 S&W and any other cartridge that I could envision working. The 38 S&W case is very similar to a 38 Spl, except the walls are thicker. Starline is probably the best known source of 38 S&W cases, so I checked with their tech department and they gave me the dimensions. I also explained what I was trying to do. And as I posted above, the idea was not new, and it was being done in DA 9mm Luger revolvers. 

 

Somewhere during this: I did shorten some 38 Spl cases to 9mm Luger length and test fire them. This confirmed that the case should have thicker walls. A 38 Spl case so modified does have a visible Glock bulge, full circumference.  Not a silly bulge, but enough of a bulge to indicate to me that shortening 38 Spl brass was not a viable option. 

 

I know it can be done, it is possible, it is safe, it has been done already. I just have to decide whether I will do it, or not. 

 

The details of how I plan on doing it if I decide to proceed is as follows;

 

> buy new 38 S&W brass

> FL size in a 9mm Luger FL die, using the appropriate shellholder

> trim to length, 0.751" or slightly shorter to ensure headspacing is on the rim, not on the case mouth

> expand the case neck to accommodate a 357/358 cast bullet. 

> use a 38 S&W starting load

> seat and crimp the bullet. (I will probably use a roll crimp)

 

XvrM7Uv.jpg

 

Of course, do not do any of the above, it is all theory and conjecture.

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In addition to Classic Cowboy, ya can't shoot Frontier Cartridge either, cuz they won't hold the requisite 1cc of black powder. ;)

A .40 S&W will, just barely - I've used my .38-40/.40 S&W Vaqueros with the .40 cylinders before.

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55 minutes ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

In addition to Classic Cowboy, ya can't shoot Frontier Cartridge either, cuz they won't hold the requisite 1cc of black powder. ;)

A .40 S&W will, just barely - I've used my .38-40/.40 S&W Vaqueros with the .40 cylinders before.

Point of order. It does not have to hold 1cc of BP. It has to produce smoke on par with the proof load, which is built with 1cc of BP.

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54 minutes ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

In addition to Classic Cowboy, ya can't shoot Frontier Cartridge either, cuz they won't hold the requisite 1cc of black powder. ;)

A .40 S&W will, just barely - I've used my .38-40/.40 S&W Vaqueros with the .40 cylinders before.

You have to make smoke equivalent to 1cc of BP. Conditions and what bp or substitute you use will yield different results. A 9mm will hold 9grs of 777 3F which depending on conditions can be quite smoky and meet the minimum. 

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The factory .38 S&W case that I have measure .762 in length. The 9's which vary a whole bunch when using mixed brass average in the .742 to .745 range. Not sure what you are looking to accomplish here but 3 grs of virtually any of the popular pistol powders and a 105gr to 125gr. bullet in a .38 special case yields very soft shooting loads. The results from your . 38 S&W experiment will be interesting. Look forward to seeing them. 

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You can just as easily make a perfectly nice light load with a .38sp case and a 105gr bullet without having to look around for special components.  You can find .38sp once fired cases cheaply.    Doc Shapiro did a good study with folks using loads with some recoil and feedback, vs. shooting with "no recoil" loads.  He founds that the shooters had faster runs with some recoil rather than no recoil.  Plus, the variation in powder from round to round is less likely to produce a light "squib" load.  Also, be aware in your search for a light load, that there are minimum power factor that must be met. 

 

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9mm cases, Triple 7 - 1cc Lee Dipper on the left pushed into the pile, not scooped, then carded off level. Middle, 9 grains by weight. Right, 9 grains by volume. No drop tube used. Cases are fired Starline and not yet re-sized, so levels would be marginally higher in sized cases.

I should have measured the middle and right ones by volume, but the middle looks like around 15 - 20% less than the one on the left, and at least 30 - 35% less on the right. I suppose it's possible, under the right conditions, the middle one could maybe meet the smoke standard, but I think it would be a stretch.

It might be fun to try and see if I got called on it. :D "Warthog 9mm's" :lol:

100_2343.JPG

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1 hour ago, "Big Boston" said:

Thanks again. 

 

As the 9mm Luger does not look like a revolver round, I did want to confirm the legality of using the case. After all you don't usually find 38 S&W cases lying on the ground at the range. 

 

I've researched this pretty extensively, and I'm nearly ready to order some 38 S&W brass. When I rechecked the rules, I couldn't see any rule preventing me from using the 9mm Luger case. It would need a lead bullet and it would be better if it were sized around 358. Here's where the wicket gets a bit sticky. Because the 9mm Luger headspaces on the case mouth, and it is a revolver, the empty and full cases get slammed into the end of the chamber, and this area gets a bit tight. The chamber mouth gets peened and the throat gets pinched a bit. Not a problem with a jacketed bullet, but definitely an issue with an oversized lead bullet. Therefore I'd prefer a case that headspaces on the rim. My search for rimmed 9mm Luger did not bear fruit. 

 

I bought my Ruger BH a couple of years ago, it's been around, it's a 200 th Anniversary convertible model. It had been shot mostly with 9mm Luger. 

 

I tested the revolver with 9mm Luger factory ammo, it shot well. I handloaded up some cast bullet ammo, no sir, that was not a charm. A 356 lead cast bullet down a 358 bore leaves a bit of lead. For this to work, the cast bullet has to be closer to groove diameter. 

 

I believe the 45 Auto Rim/ACP moon clip is fairly well known. The revolver was designed to utilize moon clips, for extraction. It could be fired without the moon clips, but extraction was an issue. When they designed a rimmed 45 ACP case, the rim ended up being a bit thicker than the norm, because the cylinder was designed with moon clips being used, and the moon clip design used a slightly larger than usual gap.

 

The Ruger convertible cylinder was never designed to use moon clips, not from concept, not ever. Extraction is with the ejector rod. However, Ruger did not design a new cylinder for the 9mm Luger. They just chambered and throated the regular cylinder to accommodate the 9mm Luger. And the regular cylinder is not machined for a recessed rim. The 9mm Luger round sticks out of the Ruger cylinder by about the thickness of a normal rim. 

 

So, to prove the concept I decided to do some testing. Before doing any actual shooting I did a bit more research. I checked all the SAAMI specs for 9mm Luger, 357 Mag, 38 Spl, 38 S&W and any other cartridge that I could envision working. The 38 S&W case is very similar to a 38 Spl, except the walls are thicker. Starline is probably the best known source of 38 S&W cases, so I checked with their tech department and they gave me the dimensions. I also explained what I was trying to do. And as I posted above, the idea was not new, and it was being done in DA 9mm Luger revolvers. 

 

Somewhere during this: I did shorten some 38 Spl cases to 9mm Luger length and test fire them. This confirmed that the case should have thicker walls. A 38 Spl case so modified does have a visible Glock bulge, full circumference.  Not a silly bulge, but enough of a bulge to indicate to me that shortening 38 Spl brass was not a viable option. 

 

I know it can be done, it is possible, it is safe, it has been done already. I just have to decide whether I will do it, or not. 

 

The details of how I plan on doing it if I decide to proceed is as follows;

 

> buy new 38 S&W brass

> FL size in a 9mm Luger FL die, using the appropriate shellholder

> trim to length, 0.751" or slightly shorter to ensure headspacing is on the rim, not on the case mouth

> expand the case neck to accommodate a 357/358 cast bullet. 

> use a 38 S&W starting load

> seat and crimp the bullet. (I will probably use a roll crimp)

 

XvrM7Uv.jpg

 

Of course, do not do any of the above, it is all theory and conjecture.

The answer to my upcoming question may simply be that you didn’t want to but if you cut down some .38 special cases, why didn’t you just shoot them in the .357 cylinder?

 

Randy

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After all of this it looks like Starline need to start making 38 Cowboy splc.  like the 45 Cowboy splc. same length as the 45 ACP .

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Sawmill Mary shot 38 Short Colt loads for a couple of years before stepping up to 44WCF.   I loaded them with TiteGroup and bullets from 105-120 grain. I don't think there was much savings of powder or reduced recoil over loads in a 38 Special case. 

 

It was nice that the ejector rod would kick the case all the way out.  This would be a real advantage with guns with 3" barrels and short ejectors.  

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I just tried some .38 S&W in my Ruger 3 screw Blackhawks 9mm cylinder and they wouldn't chamber fully, there was at least 1/16th of an inch sticking up from the chamber. I would just use 105 grain bullets in .38 special cases myself.

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7 hours ago, Lead Foot Luke said:

Magtech makes a shorter version of 38 special that is quite light.  I have a couple boxes, but they don't have enough recoil for my preference.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1657511908/magtech-sport-ammunition-38-special-short-125-grain-lead-round-nose-box-of-50

I'll be dawged - never heard of such a thing. A hundred years from now people will be arguing over the existence of a factory .38 Special short just like .45 Long Colt/Short Colt crowd does now. :ph34r:

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3 minutes ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

I'll be dawged - never heard of such a thing. A hundred years from now people will be arguing over the existence of a factory .38 Special short just like .45 Long Colt/Short Colt crowd does now. :ph34r:

Nothing to argue. It’s just .45 Colt.

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45 minutes ago, Major E A Sterner #12916 said:

I just tried some .38 S&W in my Ruger 3 screw Blackhawks 9mm cylinder and they wouldn't chamber fully, there was at least 1/16th of an inch sticking up from the chamber. I would just use 105 grain bullets in .38 special cases myself.

I have several 38/357's and NONE of them will chamber a 38 S&W. I also have a couple of 38 S&W's and 38 sp 38 short colt and 38 new police all are loose in a 38 S&W chamber. You can size down a 38 S&W but it still leaves the last 3/16" or so that is too large to chamber in 38 spl revolvers.

kR

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Kid, I tried them in a 9mm cylinder, not the .357

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13 hours ago, Major E A Sterner #12916 said:

Kid, I tried them in a 9mm cylinder, not the .357

You are right. I just checked the 38 S&W in a 9 mm round checker (I no longer have a 9 mm revolver) it does go in except for 1/16". I also checked a 9 mm in a 357 revolver. It does chamber about halfway in.

kR

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