IMR-4759 in 44-40 WCF

[Bugler]

Anyone use this powder in the 44-40? My brother gave me 6 lbs of it and I would like to use it.....It looks like 14 grains would be a near equivalent of my 6 grains of Unique with a 200 grn RNFP

 

Bugler

[Tyrel Cody]

Used to, excellent powder. Problem is they don't make it any more 

 

14 gr. Sounds like a LOT. Based on memory I used around 8 gr. with a 200 gn bullet. 

 

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com

 

It's under IMR SR-4756, pretty sure anyway.

[Tex Jones, SASS 2263]

There is a load for IMR SR 4756 on Hodgdon's web site.  They list a maximum load of 9.3grs.  If there is/was a listing for IMR 4759 it's probably best to call Hodgdon and speak to a tech.  Good luck.

[G W Wade]

Ken Waters book - Pet Loads  shows 15.0 gr SR4759 under a Lyman cast bullet at just over 1000fps in a 24in bbl      While SR4756 uses 8.5 to 9.4      Good luck     GW

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

It has now been discontinued from all that I read.  I used to use it in 32-40 and 40-65 loads with cast bullets and excellent results. 

 

It it is probably not the best powder for CAS loads though.  Since it is discontinued, you should be able to sell it for a good price or trade it for a more suitable powder.  That is unless you are planning to make “hunting loads”.

[Bugler]

So, why would this not be the best powder for SASS? I usually use Unique or real black powder.....Just thought I could put it to use and save my Unique for a bit later.

 

Bugler

 

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

2 hours ago, Bugler said:

So, why would this not be the best powder for SASS? I usually use Unique or real black powder.....Just thought I could put it to use and save my Unique for a bit later.

 

Bugler

 

You said yourself that 14 grains would be equivalent to 6 gr of Unique. That right there would make it not the "best" for SASS loads. Doesn't need to be the best, 6 pounds for free, use it up.

[Captain Clark]

4759 is  great for 405 gr cast 45-70 loads! It seemed to be the preferred choice for many cast bullet loads through the years!

[John Boy]

You can look at Hodgdon's burn rate chart and see what the closest powders are and check the data for those powders to see if one would work for your 44-40 cartridge. These are the closest powders on Hodgdon's chart:

62 Hodgdon LL GUN
63 Hodgdon 110
64 Winchester 296 (exactly the same as H110)
65 IMR Co IMR 4227
66 Hodgdon H4227 (discontinued I believe)
67 IMR Co SR 4759
68 Accurate Arms 5744
69 Accurate Arms 1680
70 Norma 200
71 Alliant Reloder 7
72 IMR Co IMR 4198

You obviously need to use the specific data for whichever powder you choose.

 

 

[Griff]

I even went back and looked @ my old 3rd edition of Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook (mine's the 4th printing from 1987) and it doesn't list SR 4759 for the 44-40.  It does list it under the 45-70 for the 1886 Winchester and 1895 Marlin.  I also found loads using it in the 44Spl.   I looked in my 1970 edition of the Lyman Reloading Handbook, and it isn't even listed in their reference section. 

 

The 3rd Edition of the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook lists:  "Dupont SR-4759 -- Basically a rifle powder with limited handgun applications.  Probably the most useful propellant for cast bullets, because of its remarkable stability with reduced loads.  Available in a 4-pound caddy or 12-pound keg."

[Dusty Boddems]

No longer made but an absolute stellar powder for reduced lead loads out of 30/06,8mm, 308 etc. Dusty B.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

On 1/13/2019 at 10:05 AM, Bugler said:

So, why would this not be the best powder for SASS? I usually use Unique or real black powder.....Just thought I could put it to use and save my Unique for a bit later.

 

 

It is a really slow powder to use in pistol cartridges (as the .44-40 is), it was designed for cast bullet shooting in rifle loadings like .38-55 and .45-70.

 

In your proposed usage, it won't burn very clean or consistently (probably not accurately either), will probably be squibby when you try to make typical Cowboy loadings with it in .44-40, and no up-to-date loading data is available in published form because the powder has been out of production at least 5 years.

 

As was already recommended, trade that powder to a cast bullet rifle shooter who would DIE to have an extra keg of 4759,  and have him give you twice as much Unique.  That would be  a great trade for both of you!

 

Good luck, GJ

[Savvy Jack]

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

It is a really slow powder to use in pistol cartridges (as the .44-40 is),

Good luck, GJ

The 44-40 is a rifle cartridge so says SAAMI

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

33 minutes ago, Savvy Jack said:

The 44-40 is a rifle cartridge so says SAAMI

In 1873, it was a rifle cartridge.

 

If you still used BP in the case, maybe you could still count it as such.

 

By current comparisons with rifle cartridges up to say .458 Winchester or 50 BMG, by it's case volume, power factor, and what is defined in the SASS rulebook, it is a pistol cartridge.   

 

Where SAAMI decided to place the drawing or the pressure limits in their reference files, means less than nothing with regard to how 4759 will perform in the .44 WCF cartridge.

 

GJ

 

[Savvy Jack]

2 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

In 1873, it was a rifle cartridge.

Where SAAMI decided to place the drawing or the pressure limits in their reference files, means less than nothing with regard to how 4759 will perform in the .44 WCF cartridge.

 

GJ

 

It still is a rifle cartridge and if SAAMI wants to call it what they want then I guess so can SASS....... and yes, it has nothing to do with IMR-4759
44-40 is a rifle cartridge, yesterday, in 1873 and tomorrow.....and I like shooting rifle powders in it 

[Savvy Jack]

On 1/12/2019 at 10:48 PM, Bugler said:

Anyone use this powder in the 44-40? My brother gave me 6 lbs of it and I would like to use it.....It looks like 14 grains would be a near equivalent of my 6 grains of Unique with a 200 grn RNFP

 

Bugler

Maybe this will help
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?48337-44-40-loads-with-SR-4759

[Snakebite]

On ‎1‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 9:05 AM, Bugler said:

So, why would this not be the best powder for SASS? I usually use Unique or real black powder.....Just thought I could put it to use and save my Unique for a bit later.

 

Bugler

 

Its a pretty slow burning powder. More suitable for a larger rifle case. Sure it will work.... most any powder will work, but a faster powder would be much better IMO.

[Savvy Jack]

6 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Its a pretty slow burning powder. More suitable for a larger rifle case. Sure it will work.... most any powder will work, but a faster powder would be much better IMO.

Why would a faster burning powder be much better?

[Cheatin Charlie]

I use a lot of 4759 powder in cast bullet rifle loads.  I don't know if it will work in 44-40 but I do know it is large stick powder and does not meter well in most powder

measures.  It will also bridge in your drop tube and you can get light and heavy loads.  It measures fairly well in the old B&M measures but I normally wind up weighting each charge to be sure.

[Snakebite]

1 hour ago, Savvy Jack said:

Why would a faster burning powder be much better?

A slow burning powder usually needs a longer barrel so that the "Burn" is finished before the powder leaves the end of the barrel. Once the "burn" stops, the acceleration turns into deceleration. The perfect match would be to have the powder reach the end of it's "Burn" just as the bullet exits the barrel. There are a number of things that effect the burn length of the powder. A tight crimp will hold things back a bit and allow the burn to build up more pressure. A slower powder in a short barrel, like a pistol or revolver, is usually used for a Magnum type load. A fast burn powder like Bullseye is normally used in short barrels. It burns fast, and pushes the bullet out the end of the barrel. You can really see the effect more with Black Powder. The reason that you see all that fire coming out the end of the barrel is usually because powder that has not burned inside the barrel exits the barrel while it is still burning. It does absolutely NO GOOD outside of the barrel, but some of these guy really like to put on a show. It's OK.. I like a show, but it has no practical value.  Bottom line.... for this game of Gallery loads, any fast burning powder will work just fine. If you are getting unburned flakes all over the place, you will probably need a little tighter crimp. Bla-bla- bla. Bla bla bra anne

 

Snakebite

[Savvy Jack]

1 hour ago, Snakebite said:

A slow burning powder usually needs a longer barrel so that the "Burn" is finished before the powder leaves the end of the barrel. Once the "burn" stops, the acceleration turns into deceleration. The perfect match would be to have the powder reach the end of it's "Burn" just as the bullet exits the barrel. There are a number of things that effect the burn length of the powder. A tight crimp will hold things back a bit and allow the burn to build up more pressure. A slower powder in a short barrel, like a pistol or revolver, is usually used for a Magnum type load. A fast burn powder like Bullseye is normally used in short barrels. It burns fast, and pushes the bullet out the end of the barrel. You can really see the effect more with Black Powder. The reason that you see all that fire coming out the end of the barrel is usually because powder that has not burned inside the barrel exits the barrel while it is still burning. It does absolutely NO GOOD outside of the barrel, but some of these guy really like to put on a show. It's OK.. I like a show, but it has no practical value.  Bottom line.... for this game of Gallery loads, any fast burning powder will work just fine. If you are getting unburned flakes all over the place, you will probably need a little tighter crimp. Bla-bla- bla. Bla bla bra anne

 

Snakebite

Glad you explained that for those that may not know. Using slower burning rifle powders in the 44-40, with a rifle, is certainly not efficient and a revolver could give worse efficiency results. With powders like IMR4227, Reloder-7, H4198 and a few others...only burn about 50% of the powder...even less expensive than black powder loads.  The 44-40's brass is thin so don't really count on a stiff crimp ;-)

If it's cost folks are looking for, it gets expensive like black powder. However, the original poster wasn't worried about expense since I think he said his powder was free.

 

So keeping on topic, it will work fine in the 44-40.

 

On a side note....

A shooter is more likely to blow up a 44-40 RIFLE with a accidental double charge of Unique than from an accidental over charge of a slower burning rifle powder. A double charge of rifle powder will over flow the case just like Trail Boss was designed to do...or at least fill it to the rim....a built in safety factor.

If I had some IMR-4759 handy, I would certainly test some but I have not ever had a chance to get some locally.

 

 

In addition too...
The following is not advice...
For revolvers and weak action longarms (Lyman's 49th lists 10 such weak actions on page 299 as Group I rifles) Stick with published loads.

For strong action longarms (Lyman's 49th lists 9 such strong action firearms as Group II rifles). Use Lyman's High Pressure loads to reach out and touch something far away in a Winchester 92' or even a Marlin 1894, as an  example!

I have tested full black powder charges in original 44 WCF semi-balloon head cases that resulted in pressures up to 14,000psi... when all modern brass developed less than 11,000psi with more compression of the same load. (I could be wrong) 

 

SAAMI max is 11,000psi/13,000cup SAAMI website, page 21 and page 33 

 

Using full case loads of certain rifle powders in the 44-40 results in excellent groups and velocities at 100, 200 and 265 yards.
For tons of 44-40 cartridge information, visit the 44-40 Website

 

For my testing results, go here, scroll to the bottom and download the DOCX file. USE AT OWN RISK.
REMEMBER, I COULD BE WRONG!

[Snakebite]

Well, it appears that you did know. I didn't realize it was a test. I took your question as being a real question. 

[Savvy Jack]

4 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Well, it appears that you did know. I didn't realize it was a test. I took your question as being a real question. 

 

I did know but I am sure others may not have known, you made a great point and your followup explanation was excellent.

[Griff]

3 hours ago, Savvy Jack said:

...Using slower burning rifle powders in the 44-40, with a rifle, is certainly not efficient and a revolver could give worse efficiency results. With powders like IMR4227, Reloder-7, H4198 and a few others...only burn about 50% of the powder...even less expensive than black powder loads.  The 44-40's brass is thin so don't really count on a stiff crimp ;-)

Actually, don't you just mean to say that a slow burning powder in the .44-40 MAY be more efficient in a rifle than in a pistol.   I say "MAY", because not every slow burning powder is efficient in the .44-40.  The differences in application between the same cartridge in rifle vs pistol and the attendant differences in barrel length will make for either very efficient powder use or inefficient powder usage.  Speaking in generalities, the longer barrel of a rifle is better able to utilize a slower powder and still attain respectable velocities.  Some fast pistol powders can achieve their maximum pressure well before they've pushed the bullet the length of the barrel.  I.e. the bullet may actually be slowing before it exits the barrel.  Slow powders in the short barrel of a pistol may never reach it sufficient pressure for a cartridge's full velocity potential.  

 

So, in short, while SR4759 may be a VERY good powder in the .44-40 from a rifle, it's use use for the .44-40 from a pistol could be quite dismal, especially when compared to other powders than can complete their burn in the barrel lengths typically found in pistols.

 

It's why I typically have to work hard to keep from laughing out loud when folks spout statistics like "...you'll gain 50fps for every inch of additional barrel length..."   That is probably the exception rather than the rule.  And the above differences in the relationship between fast & slow powders in either short or long barrels are the reason.    My typical response is, "...yep, can happen."

[Savvy Jack]

nope, rifle powders are not efficient in 44-40 rifles and even less efficient in 44-40 revolvers.

 

Defining the word" efficient" MAY be interpreted different from one person to the next.

I use Reloder 7 and IMR-4227 exclusively in my 44-40 firearms, rifles and revolvers and LOVE IT but it's like driving 30 miles to work one way in a Jeep CJ-7 with a Chevy 350 in it getting 12 miles per gal. It is a love/hate relationship....an acquired taste, so to speak.

Oh yeah, my CAS/Plinking loads are Trail Boss

Other than Trail Boss, I no longer use pistol powders in my 44-40 firearms.

[Snakebite]

I used to load 45-70 with Reloader 7 because of the Low Pressure.  I don't encourage anyone to shoot any BP gun using Smokeless powder, but many folks do so with their old Springfield (Trap Door) and their old Revolvers. The front end of the burn of ANY smokeless powder creates a very high pressure spike when compared to Black Powder. Most old BP guns made before the mid-late 1880's were made out of Iron, not steel. The pressure spike of smokeless powder will stretch the iron in these old guns. This is especially true in a Black Powder revolver where the Top Strap stretches just a little each time it is shot using smokeless powder. This happens EVEN when using a light smokeless load. I've seen more than one old Colt destroyed because the shooter thought that his light smokeless loads would be OK to use.  Reloader 7 also has that pressure spike, but it is lower than many of the powders chosen to use in their old  BP guns.  

[Savvy Jack]

When Winchester first offered smokeless powder in 1895 for the 44-40, The box was labeled Winchester 73'

 

Understanding history keeps us from repeating it. 

1895: Red Label- Smokeless powder was offered for the .44 Winchester during this year. It is believed that Dupont #2 Bulk powder was used and had a similar burn rate as today's 4227. Dupont #2 was a caseload but 4227 is not. Also "NOT FOR PISTOLS" is noted on the side label. The Nomenclature on the label specifically states "for Winchester Rifle Model 1873"...eliminating the myth that smokeless powders should not be used in original Winchester 73' rifles BUT does confirm smokeless powders should not be used in black powder frame revolvers.Other changes to the labels included Winchester 92 on the side label and eventually both 73' and 92' on the top label.

 

[Savvy Jack]

1903-1938: High Velocity Cartridges - Winchester offered High Velocity cartridges starting this year for the Winchester Model 92' Again, busting the myth that the 92' was a weak action rifle. These new Lavender, Pink and Yellow labels stood out as not to confuse them to be used in any other firearm. I am lead to believe that the early labels were Lavender and Pink while the later, maybe after 1910...were Yellow. A Lavender example shows a file code of 405 with a top label change date of 10-9 (October 1909) with ".44-40 Model 1892 Special" in large letters as well as "High Velocity Low Pressure" underneath in smaller letters. The side label is dated 8-20 (August 1920) and informs us "...they should never be used in Winchester 73' rifles" as well as in big bold words..."NOT FOR PISTOLS".

More Here:

This yellow label was claimed to produce 22,000cup, rather than the lower black powder 13,000cup

[Snakebite]

Well I've never heard any "Myth" that the 92 was a weak action, and it is not a "Myth" that Smokeless powders should not be used in the early 73's. 

[Bugler]

With all of this discussion, which is very interesting, I think I will just keep using my Unique for both rifle and revolver...........

Bugler

[Savvy Jack]

34 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Well I've never heard any "Myth" that the 92 was a weak action, and it is not a "Myth" that Smokeless powders should not be used in the early 73's. 

Oh yes, many many forums...I can argue with those guys all day long

[Snakebite]

I believe that... but I'm not going to argue all day. I'm done right now.

[Savvy Jack]

2 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

I believe that... but I'm not going to argue all day. I'm done right now.

lol, my bad, not what I ment...I will edit that

[Snakebite]

6 hours ago, Bugler said:

With all of this discussion, which is very interesting, I think I will just keep using my Unique for both rifle and revolver...........

Bugler

Of all the many powders made, IMO, Unique is one of the most versatile. If I were limited to just One powder only, that is the one I would choose. I don't shoot as much of it as I use to because there are many powders that are designed to do a much more specific job... but good ol Unique will work in anything, handgun, rifle, shotgun, and do a pretty good job in any of them. 

[Savvy Jack]

12 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Of all the many powders made, IMO, Unique is one of the most versatile. If I were limited to just One powder only, that is the one I would choose. 

 

 

Unique is the best stuff out there IMO too. That is some good stuff...I too would choose it if I could only have one powder....maybe other than Reloder 7 or maybe IMR-4227.

Food for thought using pistol powders in large volume "cowboy" cases.

Over here I would bet most of the barrel/revolver chamber blow outs are caused by lightly loaded double charges of pistol powders. I bet the squibs are also caused by lightly under loaded pistol powders.