What's the Call - holsters

[T-Square]

At today's match, there was a question about holstering your revolver.

 

some say you don't have to re-holster your pistols, if the revolvers are the last firearms used.

 

some say there was a rule change and you don't have to re-holster the revolvers regardless of shooting sequence.

 

the handbook says:  

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

I'm very new to the sport and want to know the rules, so can someone point me to the handbook section that allows you to "not" re-holster your revolvers?

 

or is it some trick to claim the weapon "dead" or "broken"?

 

thank you in advance,

[Doc Shapiro]

As far as I know, only if revolvers are last in the sequence.  They must be returned to leather before the next gun is shot.

[Yusta B.]

10 minutes ago, Doc Shapiro said:

As far as I know, only if revolvers are last in the sequence.  They must be returned to leather before the next gun is shot.

^^^^ What Doc said ........

[Peddler Parsons SASS # 31281]

unless it says to make safe

 

 

[T-Square]

Can you give me a citation in the handbook? Where does it say that?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 minutes ago, T-Square said:

Can you give me a citation in the handbook? Where does it say that?

 

Quote

"...unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise.."

 

[Griff]

4 minutes ago, T-Square said:

Can you give me a citation in the handbook? Where does it say that?

pg 15, 4th bullet point down the page.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

57 minutes ago, T-Square said:

At today's match, there was a question about holstering your revolver.

 

some say you don't have to re-holster your pistols, if the revolvers are the last firearms used.

If you don't reholster them at the end of the STAGE, how do you carry them to the ULT?

 

some say there was a rule change and you don't have to re-holster the revolvers regardless of shooting sequence.

There has been NO rule change.

 

the handbook says:  

Revolvers are returned to leather (re-holstered in a safe condition) at the conclusion of the shooting string, unless the stage description specifically directs otherwise (e.g., “move to the next position and set gun on table or prop”). A shooting string is defined as shots from one type of firearm prior to the next type of firearm engaged.

 

I'm very new to the sport and want to know the rules, so can someone point me to the handbook section that allows you to "not" re-holster your revolvers?

SEE ABOVE 

 

or is it some trick to claim the weapon "dead" or "broken"?

If someone tries that "trick" with functional firearms, the penalty would be a MDQ for "unsportsmanlike conduct".

 

thank you in advance,

 

[T-Square]

Palewolf,

You asked - how did they get to the ULT :

my question is about what happens before your trip to the ULT.

While the cowboy was on the clock,  they shot the pistols, laid them on the table, picked up the shotgun and finished the stage. 

then they gathered their firearms (pistols, rifle and shotgun) so after the timer stopped then they re-holstered and headed to the ULT.

setting the pistols on the table was not written as part of the stage design.

 

i can not find the part of the handbook that allows you to not re-holster when it's not a written part of the stage. ( sorry for the triple negative)

 

where is it written that you can finish the pistol string of fire, put your pistols on a table (or prop) and carry on?

 

not re-holstering after shooting the pistol string of fire could save time and the challenge of getting those pesky irons back in the leather - but it seems real "un-cowboy" to me.

 

thanks.

 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

It is not written anywhere because it doesn't exist,, only as PWB posted above, only when the stage description allows it. 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

We have had shooters ground the first pistol and then shoot the second, and THEN holster both before moving to the next string (firearm). If pistols are shot last, I see no reason why they could not do this and holster both at the end of the stage. The key is, BEFORE the next string (other type of firearm).

[Doc Shapiro]

19 minutes ago, T-Square said:

<snip>

 

While the cowboy was on the clock,  they shot the pistols, laid them on the table, picked up the shotgun and finished the stage. 

then they gathered their firearms (pistols, rifle and shotgun) so after the timer stopped then they re-holstered and headed to the ULT.

<snip>

 

 

 

That would be a 'P'.  Once both revolvers were finished, they need to be holstered as the "shooting string" is complete.  Then they can go on to the shotgun.

 

It's allowed if pistols are last.  When the string is complete, then they can be holstered.

 

It is allowed if pistols are not last, but they must be holstered before the next shot is fired.

[Kirk James]

It is my understanding that if the pistols are last, you can ground your 1st pistol and have to the unloading table to holster it.  Shooters are not moving with pistols not in their holsters.  If this is not right I will get it announced at the larger shoots before Winter Range.  While I do not do this myself, there are quite a few good shooters who are doing this in matches around AZ.  

[Kirk James]

Sorry Doc-did not mean to duplicate.  Kirk

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

This is one can of worms I wish we had just left closed. 

[Griff]

5 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

This is one can of worms I wish we had just left closed. 

Why?  It seems rather straight forward to me... unless directed otherwise, you must holster your pistols at the end of the pistol string.  Since a holstered pistol is considered a "safe" pistol, much better than leaving them on a table, bench, hay bale or other surface where they can get bumped around, knocked off and suffer other indignities.   IMO, the direction "make safe" is not a specific direction to do anything but, holster.  It's redundant, but... some stage writers like redundancy.  Now, "...make safe on table/counter/bale..." or some other place besides the holster is specific and meets the criteria for "NOT" holstering at the end of the pistol string.

 

If pistols are last... well, the string is over, but so is the stage.  The only penalties that can be earned now are non-shooting related, sweeping, breaking the 170º, unsportsmanlike conduct, and their ilk.  If one shoots their first pistol, and sets it down, or holds it in their hand while shooting the second, that's a no call.  Whether the pistols are last or not, as long as they're holstered before the next type of firearm is fired.

 

Be cognizant that if you have a FTF in that first pistol, holstering it or grounding it, declaring the malfunction, are your only options to avoid a "P" for shooting out of category (unless you're a gunfighter or BW).

[Cowboy Junky]

It's pretty straight forward really. The pistols are a 10 shot string so if you want you can lay the first pistol on the table ANY time if you want...….the problem is you have to holster it before you shoot the next gun. 

 

So the only time it's an (arguable) advantage is when they are last and you put the first pistol on the table instead of holstering it. 

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

I believe there is an exception for Gunfighters if pistols are split by a long gun.  If the stage calls for “five shots from the first pistol, then a long gun sequence, then five shots from the second pistol”, a Gunfighter may fire the first five shots using both pistols, make them safe on a table (reholsterimg partially loaded pistols is prohibited for Gunfighters), shoot the long gun sequence, then complete the second five shots of the pistol sequence and reholster.

 

 

[Eyesa Horg]

Rut-Ro; Are we going to need popcorn?

[Charlie MacNeil, SASS #48580]

26 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Rut-Ro; Are we going to need popcorn?

Quite possibly! 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

5 hours ago, Griff said:

Why?  It seems rather straight forward to me... unless directed otherwise, you must holster your pistols at the end of the pistol string.  Since a holstered pistol is considered a "safe" pistol, much better than leaving them on a table, bench, hay bale or other surface where they can get bumped around, knocked off and suffer other indignities.   IMO, the direction "make safe" is not a specific direction to do anything but, holster.  It's redundant, but... some stage writers like redundancy.  Now, "...make safe on table/counter/bale..." or some other place besides the holster is specific and meets the criteria for "NOT" holstering at the end of the pistol string.

 

If pistols are last... well, the string is over, but so is the stage.  The only penalties that can be earned now are non-shooting related, sweeping, breaking the 170º, unsportsmanlike conduct, and their ilk.  If one shoots their first pistol, and sets it down, or holds it in their hand while shooting the second, that's a no call.  Whether the pistols are last or not, as long as they're holstered before the next type of firearm is fired.

 

Be cognizant that if you have a FTF in that first pistol, holstering it or grounding it, declaring the malfunction, are your only options to avoid a "P" for shooting out of category (unless you're a gunfighter or BW).

Oh, I understand the rule quite well. I just wish we could go back to before people wanted to start throwing their revolvers down on a table to try to gain a 1/2 second. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Oh, I understand the rule quite well. I just wish we could go back to before people wanted to start throwing their revolvers down on a table to try to gain a 1/2 second. 

I agree... And it just looks stoopid too!

 

[Tyrel Cody]

40 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Oh, I understand the rule quite well. I just wish we could go back to before people wanted to start throwing their revolvers down on a table to try to gain a 1/2 second. 

Didn't Duece make a video showing it was faster to re-holster than place on table?

 

 

[Assassin]

The only reason I place tables at each shoot location is in case a shooter needs to down a broken firearm. It has morphed into this.

Wait until the pistol spins around and breaks the 170. That was the last time I tried it.

[Yul Lose]

1 minute ago, Assassin said:

The only reason I place tables at each shoot location is in case a shooter needs to down a broken firearm. It has morphed into this.

Wait until the pistol spins around and breaks the 170. That was the last time I tried it.

 

1 minute ago, Assassin said:

The only reason I place tables at each shoot location is in case a shooter needs to down a broken firearm. It has morphed into this.

Wait until the pistol spins around and breaks the 170. That was the last time I tried it.

I watched a shooter do that yesterday that came within a hair of breaking the 170.

[Captain Bill Burt]

11 minutes ago, Assassin said:

The only reason I place tables at each shoot location is in case a shooter needs to down a broken firearm. It has morphed into this.

Wait until the pistol spins around and breaks the 170. That was the last time I tried it.

That's definitely a possibility.  Of course I've also seen shooters miss their holster and end up with a gun on the ground.

[Captain Bill Burt]

17 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Didn't Duece make a video showing it was faster to re-holster than place on table?

 

 

If everyone could reholster as quickly as he can that would be a valid basis for deciding which method is quicker.

[Tyrel Cody]

1 minute ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

If everyone could reholster as quickly as he can that would be a valid basis for deciding which method is quicker.

 

Fair enough I reckon. 

 

Personally, I'll re-holster regardless of which is faster; unless of course I have a malfunction.

[Captain Bill Burt]

4 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

Fair enough I reckon. 

 

Personally, I'll re-holster regardless of which is faster; unless of course I have a malfunction.

Situational for me.  If it's a low table I'm going to my holster.  If the table is at a height I consider comfortable I'll probably go to the table, for me it's a little bit faster.

[Griff]

It's always amusing for me to discuss how to do things quickly... but... if the pistols are not last, for the non-gunfighter, if one doesn't holster the 1st pistol when done with it, it certainly isn't a time saver on the transition to a long gun; when you can already have it in hand as you complete and holster the 2nd revolver.

[Captain Bill Burt]

Definitely Griff.  It's a disadvantage to go to the table if pistols aren't last!

[Cowboy Junky]

1 hour ago, Griff said:

It's always amusing for me to discuss how to do things quickly... but... if the pistols are not last, for the non-gunfighter, if one doesn't holster the 1st pistol when done with it, it certainly isn't a time saver on the transition to a long gun; when you can already have it in hand as you complete and holster the 2nd revolver.

The non-gunfighter folks doing it that I have seen only do it when pistols are last.....never seen it done any other way. It caught me off guard the first time I saw but now it's a regular thing 'round here. So unless they change the rules it might be here to stay. 

 

Doesn't matter too me either way because I'll always reholster because that's what I always do and I don't have to remember when and when not to do that. 

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

So to add to this. Pistols are last. Shooter pulls first pistol and shoots 5 laying pistol down as he then moves to the next window pulling his second pistol. shoots 5 and then holsters and goes and gets the first pistol and holsters.  On to the unloading table. Way legal.

Ike

[Yusta B.]

1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

So to add to this. Pistols are last. Shooter pulls first pistol and shoots 5 laying pistol down as he then moves to the next window pulling his second pistol. shoots 5 and then holsters and goes and gets the first pistol and holsters.  On to the unloading table. Way legal.

Ike

Way legal - but - probably faster to holster 1st pistol & draw 2nd pistol while moving to 2nd window. No time wasted laying 1st pistol down.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Yusta

I agree. He was moving to his right. Faster to holster into the cross draw as he's turning and moving. Pulling second pistol with his other hand. He was trying to mess with the TO and spotters heads.  He didn't.

Ike