Hog hunting w/44-40

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

Back when we had two deer behind every bush, we would take the cowboy guns out and fill the extra doe tags they almost gave away, No pressure, just a short walk in the woods and you could fill your tag.   That slow moving chunk of soft lead  has no problem filling the freezer in this day and age of Mag this or that.   Granted it does not knock them off their feet.  Took my hog with a 38/55 and more than a few deer with the pistol rifle cartridges.  Taylor Knockdown Index makes a lot of sense in the real life world and helps to explain why they still work.   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

16 hours ago, Cholla Hill Tirador said:

 

   Your statement here really doesn't make sense. First, bullets don't make holes that are the exact diameter of the bullet. Even non-expanding lead bullets with flat noses make holes through flesh significantly larger than the diameter of the bullet. Always interested in terminal ballistics, I have a bit of photographic evidence I've collected over the years of shooting deer and hogs with what many would refer to as CAS equipment. I'd post the photos here, but they're a bit graphic. But PM me if you'd like to see them.

  Second, a poor shot with something that purportedly makes a larger hole is still a poor shot. A hunter who shoots a deer through the lungs with his 38-40 is way ahead of one shoots a deer in the guts with his arrow with a broadhead or his .338 Retina Detaching Magnum.

 

 

  Right. A few weeks ago someone showed me a picture of the head a very nice buck killed locally. The head was all chewed up. When I asked why, I got the answer I've heard enough times over the years to be sick of it- "Oh, he shot it with a bow and didn't find it until the next day" (or 2 or 3 or 4 days later). Mind you they didn't lose it, it just took a while to find it. A few years ago a friend shot a hog with her bow and the thing was seen a few days later walking around with an arrow sticking out of its back. The same shot with most any revolver cartridge would've killed the poor thing.

 

  There's a reason sticks and strings fell from favor when Native Americans got their hands on Winchesters.

 

   

I never said shot placement didn't matter. Nor did I say bullets don't expand. My point was that there is more margin for error with a missing an area with a much smaller projectile than with one that can slice arteries anywhere. My other point was that stating that a cowboy gun is fine for deer or pig because people shoot them with bows and arrows in not an apt comparison. But I am no expert on ballistics or what works best on animals. But the fish and game departments are. I have hunted in 40 of the 50 states and almost all of them have restrictions on hunting with handgun calibers, but not on archery hunting. In my life, I have only lost two deer, and both with a rifle. In both cases, I hadn't known that the scope on the rifle had been bumped enough to change the poa/poi. And yes animals can be taken successfully with CAS equipment, as has been pointed out. But just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should. And it certainly doesn't mean everyone should. When someone new to either hunting or using cas guns asks these questions, the first answer shouldn't be "yes do it because I have done it"

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Double tap

[Cholla Hill Tirador]

On ‎1‎/‎7‎/‎2019 at 12:22 PM, Redwood Kid said:

I never said shot placement didn't matter.

 

But an accurate hole of less than half an inch versus a less accurate one that’s an inch and a half and slicing still does a better job.

 

 I'd say that's a pretty strong indication of your belief that a sloppy shot making a big hole is better than a precisely placed shot making a small hole, which is quite counterintuitive to what I've been taught as well as my experience.

 

Nor did I say bullets don't expand. My point was that there is more margin for error with a missing an area with a much smaller projectile than with one that can slice arteries anywhere.

 

 Again, flat nose, non-expanding bullets makes holes larger than their diameter and the damage extends out from the path of the bullet. Another nifty feature of these old lead bullets is they travel 3-4 times faster than an arrow and when they encounter bone, they shatter the bone very often sending fragments off that cut blood vessels and arteries.

 

My other point was that stating that a cowboy gun is fine for deer or pig because people shoot them with bows and arrows in not an apt comparison. But I am no expert on ballistics or what works best on animals. But the fish and game departments are. I have hunted in 40 of the 50 states and almost all of them have restrictions on hunting with handgun calibers, but not on archery hunting.

 

  Sorry friend, you're very mistaken on this one. Just a casual search shows that all but a very small handful of states have regulations for archery; minimum pull weights for bows, minimum size for broadheads, et al.

 

In my life, I have only lost two deer, and both with a rifle. In both cases, I hadn't known that the scope on the rifle had been bumped enough to change the poa/poi. And yes animals can be taken successfully with CAS equipment, as has been pointed out. But just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should. And it certainly doesn't mean everyone should. When someone new to either hunting or using cas guns asks these questions, the first answer shouldn't be "yes do it because I have done it"

 

   So to steer this back to the original question, which had nothing to do with archery, YES. 

[J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE]

Back when we used to hunt dinosaurs, a spear and a softball sized rock were good enough.  It isn't sporting to use a cannon to hunt mice.  Effective, but not sporting.

 

 

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Flint, you remember those days as well?      

 

Great to hear from you Sue!  Been a Long time.

[Savvy Jack]

On 1/5/2019 at 9:08 AM, Yusta B. said:

No offense meant to anyone --- I wouldn't  run any Buffalo Bore ammo through anything but a Ruger OMV or Blackhawk  or Marlin/        Rossi/Winchester '92.   JMHO

LOL!

[Savvy Jack]

I spent 20 minutes writing a post and then poof, it was gone and I don't think I will try and write it again. Aren't we lucky!!!
 

The 44-40 is plenty capable of killing hogs. Question is, what loads do you plan to use?

Lyman's 49th page 299-300 lists high pressure loads to be used in NINE "Group II" rifles (NOT FOR REVOLVERS) like the Winchester 92' and Marlin 94. Some of these loads come in between the Winchester's 92's 1903-1938 1,500fps High Velocity (22,000cup) loads and Winchester's original Black Powder 1,300fps loads as well as a popular powder's load that could produce 1,600fps.

Lyman lists TEN rifles for Group I rifles up to 13,000cup/11,000psi (SAAMI MAP)
Lyman lists NINE rifles for Group II rifles up to 22,000cup

I use a custom load in my Marlin 1894CB with a 240gr SWC that gives me 1,480fps and groups 30 shots inside an 18" x 18" target @260 yards. I plan on pressure testing these loads next week when my strain gauge module gets back. I expect it to be close to 20,000psi. (yes I said psi not cup). I use a strain gauge on an MGM barrel I call my test barrel. It is NOT a pressure test barrel. See attached photo. The barrel is 1 1/4" diameter.

So let's look at Lyman's Data in general...

44-40 (200gr)

Level One
13,300 CUP SAAMI MPLM, Normal (1,150 fps)

Level Two
18,000 CUP, +P (1,400 fps)

Level Three
22,000 CUP, +P+ (1,600 fps)


44 Magnum (200gr)

Rifle - No Pressure Data (should be around 18,500 CUP - 40,000 CUP)
1,600 fps - 2,100fps

Handgun Pressures (200gr)
18,500 CUP - 40,000 CUP

However, we all know the 44 magnum is famous for it's 240gr bullets, the purpose of it's design.
22,100 CUP - 40,000 CUP

So there really is no comparison between what (at least I HAVE accomplish with) the 44-40 and the 44 Magnum. Key information here is PRESSURE, not velocity!


44-40, 18,000 to 22,000 CUP (Group II Rifles only)
44 Magnum, 22,100 to 40,000 CUP (All Firearms)

 

[Savvy Jack]

Buffalo Bore's 44-40 "Heavy" 

I urge everyone to read the warnings

 

These are NOT heavy loads but are certainly loaded closer to SAAMI MAP pressures than any factory load out there...close enough to where if they are used in tight chambered revolvers/rifles or firearms with tight bores such as .426 rather than .429 or .430, the pressures could exceed SAAMI MAP.

Define Tight Chamber - 

1. Revolver chambers such as trying to shove a .429 bullet through Ruger's .426/.427 throat. Tight Chambers Pt 1, Tight Chambers Pt 2
2. Rifle chambers that push the bullet very close to the driving bands such as my Marlin 1889 made in 1891 as well as smaller bore diameters than .429

My testing results with Buffalo Bore's 44-40 "Heavy"