WTC

[Rye Miles #13621]

6 hours ago, Kirk James said:

Let me see if I understand this:  !)You still cannot move with a loaded shotgun 2) you can load the shotgun and shoot the revolver(s) as long you have not previously shot the shotgun   3)  you can move with an open loaded shotgun  4)  you can move with empty hulls and correct the situation as long as the next firearm has not be shot or you correct it before you sit it down at the unloading table if it is the last firearm engaged.  Is this right?   

Yep, looks like it!!

[Cowboy Junky]

Hmmmm. I'm confused as well. If you call the pistols a "string" then he shot one half of that string THEN picked up and loaded another gun (round under a cocked hammer) and then shot the second part of the 10 shot string while holding a loaded and cocked firearm.  

 

I sure would have called it as a P at the least, or a SDQ for having a loaded round under the hammer. 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

21 hours ago, Griff said:

"Next Shooter!"  Or, in the vernacular, "no call."

 

As for holding the "loaded" shotgun while they shot the 2nd pistol, was the action closed?  For a Gunfighter, this has no bearing, as they are allowed to have two loaded guns in hand at the same time... 

 

11 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

REVOLVERS

 

SHB page 7

 

 

20 hours ago, Griff said:

Other categories can't have 2 loaded revolvers out of leather.  However...

 

Anyone can, technically, have 2 loaded revolvers out of leather up to the time that one of them is cocked...

 

 

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

at least this situation won't apply to me 'cause if I could I would use 3 hands to hold my revolvers.

[Barry Sloe]

On 12/30/2018 at 7:17 AM, Cowboy Junky said:

I sure would have called it as a P at the least, or a SDQ for having a loaded round under the hammer. 

 

But, he didn't move. The live round under a cocked hammer applies to moving.  The way I read the stage it is basically a stand and deliver.  Outcome would have been different IF he had moved for the next string.

 

My thoughts,

BS

[Tennessee williams]

I wanted to post the above scenario to clear up a lot of confusion or misinformation Ive heard lately. I have heard a gunfighter has to alternate pistol shots, you can't hold a loaded closed shotgun while you fire a pistol, you can't pick a long gun up off the table while you shoot your pistol, you can't move with a LOADED and OPEN shotgun, you have to shuck spent shotshells before you move etc. ALL of which are false. I do have a question that I meant to address in the above post and forgot. If you shoot your rifle, lay it down and the action closes and are called back by the TO to open it, is that grounds for a reshoot if it is empty since you do not have to have it open before the next gun?

[Griff]

13 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

If you shoot your rifle, lay it down and the action closes and are called back by the TO to open it, is that grounds for a reshoot if it is empty since you do not have to have it open before the next gun?

Yes.  Tough call by myself, as a TO, as I want to help the shooter successfully navigate the stage.  Successfully = no penalties... my definition. 

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

Not grounds for a reshoot, it's the shooters responsibility, and he can make that choice to go back and open it if he wants to, or can ignore the TO if he knows it's empty.

Long guns only have to be discarded EMPTY, not OPEN & empty?

[Griff]

8 hours ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Not grounds for a reshoot, it's the shooters responsibility, and he can make that choice to go back and open it if he wants to, or can ignore the TO if he knows it's empty.

Long guns only have to be discarded EMPTY, not OPEN & empty?

Yer right, but I read his question as the TO insisting the shooter return to show clear.  In which case the TO has impeded the sooter.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 7:52 AM, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

 

 

 

Anyone can, technically, have 2 loaded revolvers out of leather up to the time that one of them is cocked...

 

 

SHB, p. 6 "At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once."

10 minutes ago, Griff said:

Yer right, but I read his question as the TO insisting the shooter return to show clear.  In which case the TO has impeded the sooter.

How can that be reconciled with a TO telling the shooter to move when the shooter has already loaded and/or cocked a gun and the shooter getting a penalty.

[Tennessee williams]

9 hours ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Not grounds for a reshoot, it's the shooters responsibility, and he can make that choice to go back and open it if he wants to, or can ignore the TO if he knows it's empty.

Long guns only have to be discarded EMPTY, not OPEN & empty?

I could be wrong but I doubt it. I don't think it is EVER the shooters' responsibility to ignore the TO (insert common sense exception here). Didn't we just have a big discussion about this and whether or not the shooter was willfully ignoring a TO command to earn a sdq or mdq?

No, the long gun doesn't have to be open and empty just empty.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

Hi TW,

 

I've read many times that if the shooter, for example, cocks a revolver or loads and closes a SG and the TO yells something like "move" or "wrong window" and the shooter moves with the cocked gun, the shooter still gets a penalty. 

[Griff]

13 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

How can that be reconciled with a TO telling the shooter to move when the shooter has already loaded and/or cocked a gun and the shooter getting a penalty.

Two different situations... in my response, I'm only responding to when the TO stops the shooter before they get to the other gun, insists the shooter return, the shooter should receive a reshoot, if the closed gun had earned them a safety penalty, it carries forward to the reshoot.  

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS I'm not writing that I agree with the call. It is just what I've read here.

 

[Griff]

13 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

I could be wrong but I doubt it. I don't think it is EVER the shooters' responsibility to ignore the TO (insert common sense exception here). Didn't we just have a big discussion about this and whether or not the shooter was willfully ignoring a TO command to earn a sdq or mdq?

No, the long gun doesn't have to be open and empty just empty.

 

1 minute ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hi TW,

 

I've read many times that if the shooter, for example, cocks a revolver or loads and closes a SG and the TO yells something like "move" or "wrong window" and the shooter moves with the cocked gun, the shooter still gets a penalty. 

Both are correct.  

[Noz]

Episodes like this are why I will refuse to be a timer operator unless no one else is qualified.  Some folks thrive on controversy but I don't.

[Griff]

Communication = closing the gap between hearing what was said and understanding what was meant.  Applies to the written word as well.  It ain't science, it's art.

 

And I might have more trouble at it than most..

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

58 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

SHB, p. 6 "At no time shall the competitor have two loaded revolvers in hand at once."

 

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

 

BJ, I quoted the 2019 SHB. Seems that your quote from 2017 would have resulted in an amendment by now.

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

10 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

BJ, I quoted the 2019 SHB. Seems that your quote from 2017 would have resulted in an amendment by now.

I hear tell that this was another one of those that was missed in the update that just went out and is on the list of items to be cleaned up that is to come out at some time...

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

19 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

BJ, I quoted the 2019 SHB. Seems that your quote from 2017 would have resulted in an amendment by now.

Also note that what you quoted ONLY prohibits folks shooting in the Duelist Style from having two loaded revolvers out at the same time.

 

There is no prohibition in the SHB for the traditional style shooter from having two loaded revolvers out at the same time.

 

That is why the clarification was important.

 

In the brief time that a traditional shooter may have, for instance, shot 4 and while holstering, pulled the second gun and had two loaded revolvers out at the same time, there is no penalty under the current SHB. That traditional style shooter, however, is going to have one of those guns put somewhere when they cock the second gun with the off hand. 

 

With the penalty not kicking in until one of these guns is cocked, the Duelist style shooter is afforded the same NO CALL that the traditional shooter is afforded for the same infraction.

 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

1 hour ago, Tennessee williams said:

I could be wrong but I doubt it. I don't think it is EVER the shooters' responsibility to ignore the TO (insert common sense exception here). Didn't we just have a big discussion about this and whether or not the shooter was willfully ignoring a TO command to earn a sdq or mdq?

No, the long gun doesn't have to be open and empty just empty.

only in event of a cease fire,, I think

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

39 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

BJ, I quoted the 2019 SHB. Seems that your quote from 2017 would have resulted in an amendment by now.

 

[Branchwater Jack SASS #88854]

7 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

 

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L, when is the 'revised' 2019 SHB coming out?

[Tennessee williams]

12 minutes ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L, when is the 'revised' 2019 SHB coming out?

I got an email of a revised version this morning, or is that something different?

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

Yer right, but I read his question as the TO insisting the shooter return to show clear.  In which case the TO has impeded the sooter.

In that case I'd agree if he had insisted, and if I knew it was empty  and went back then I'd want a reshoot too. 

[Tennessee williams]

50 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

only in event of a cease fire,, I think

But, that would imply the only time I need follow the T.O. instruction is when he or she commands cease fire. 

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

2 hours ago, Tennessee williams said:

I could be wrong but I doubt it. I don't think it is EVER the shooters' responsibility to ignore the TO (insert common sense exception here). Didn't we just have a big discussion about this and whether or not the shooter was willfully ignoring a TO command to earn a sdq or mdq?

No, the long gun doesn't have to be open and empty just empty.

With the open and empty rule changed some years ago this is a quite a frequent occurrence with ROs calling back shooters cause the lever has closed. If an on the ball RO KNOWS there's still an empty case in cause he saw the shooter had not cycled it then insisting the shooter come back to save a minor safety may have credence, but the rule says not open and if the shooter is confident he knows it's empty then im not coming back because I still don't believe it's ground for a reshoot. 

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

1 minute ago, Tennessee williams said:

But, that would imply the only time I need follow the T.O. instruction is when he or she commands cease fire. 

No not at all that's pushing the limit, but if you want to go there. What's the difference if an RO says to come back to shoot at a position you missed, and you don't? You the shooter gets the penalty say a P . A cease fire command goes without saying you have to cease fire and they may not always be the RO yelling that.

[Tennessee williams]

12 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

With the open and empty rule changed some years ago this is a quite a frequent occurrence with ROs calling back shooters cause the lever has closed. If an on the ball RO KNOWS there's still an empty case in cause he saw the shooter had not cycled it then insisting the shooter come back to save a minor safety may have credence, but the rule says not open and if the shooter is confident he knows it's empty then im not coming back because I still don't believe it's ground for a reshoot. 

 

8 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

No not at all that's pushing the limit, but if you want to go there. What's the difference if an RO says to come back to shoot at a position you missed, and you don't? You the shooter gets the penalty say a P . A cease fire command goes without saying you have to cease fire and they may not always be the RO yelling that.

So, you are saying you would willfully disregard TO instruction? (Keeping in mind the common sense caveat from earlier).

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

In the case that I knew the rifle was empty and the lever had closed... and was calling me back to open it yes.! Not all ROs are right and this RO doesn't know the rules in this case.

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

Tennessee it's not different to the WB rule that was changed last year from 5 to 7 rounds and the ability to do a tactical reload. Shooters are shooting 6 rounds then changing mags while the RO is yelling "one more one more? I have to ignore the RO cause I'm doing a tactical reload and the RO doesn't know the new rules than I can ! 

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

@PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L, when is the 'revised' 2019 SHB coming out?

Posted now @ https://www.sassnet.com/Shooters-Handbook-001A.php

[Tennessee williams]

35 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Tennessee it's not different to the WB rule that was changed last year from 5 to 7 rounds and the ability to do a tactical reload. Shooters are shooting 6 rounds then changing mags while the RO is yelling "one more one more? I have to ignore the RO cause I'm doing a tactical reload and the RO doesn't know the new rules than I can ! 

 

40 minutes ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

In the case that I knew the rifle was empty and the lever had closed... and was calling me back to open it yes.! Not all ROs are right and this RO doesn't know the rules in this case.

I totally understand about the possibility of an uninformed TO, but their role is to safely assist the shooter. Do you ignore the command, or say rule changed, or its empty atleast? What if you are assuming you are being called back for one reason and it actually be another very important reason? 

I would say TO should not be ignored so they can do their job. If it turns out the command was not for a safety reason or was improper coaching just take the reshoot. I also dont want to have a 10 second dialogue when Im shooting a stage. 

Seems to me the rule says proper coaching will never be a reason for a reshoot. One would assume improper coaching, then would be reason.

[Captain Bill Burt]

9 minutes ago, Tennessee williams said:

 

I totally understand about the possibility of an uninformed TO, but their role is to safely assist the shooter. Do you ignore the command, or say rule changed, or its empty atleast? What if you are assuming you are being called back for one reason and it actually be another very important reason? 

I would say TO should not be ignored so they can do their job. If it turns out the command was not for a safety reason or was improper coaching just take the reshoot. I also dont want to have a 10 second dialogue when Im shooting a stage. 

Seems to me the rule says proper coaching will never be a reason for a reshoot. One would assume improper coaching, then would be reason.

TO interference. Reshoot.