Red Eye Jim Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 I thought I'd ask here first, but I realize I may have to take this over to the Wild Bunch. I just started reloading .45ACP for the first time last night and I'm running into a small hickup so I thought I'd ask and see if anyone had any ideas. About 1 in 4 of rounds are coming out not able to fit all the way into the cartridge gauge. I know this is going to be an issue because I purchased some re-manufactured rounds with lead only bullets so that I could use them in my 3.5" Ruger NMV that is chambered for .45 ACP. I found that some of those rounds would cause problems for the cylinder to turn. When I started gauging those rounds I found the ones that were causing the problem wouldn't slip all the way in. By contrast the Remington UMC rounds with RN FMJ have no issues in the gun or in the gauge, but I can't use those at a match, so I need to make up my own. I'm using the same 200 Grain RNFP PC rounds from Badman that I use for .45 Colt. I got the dies for my 550C for Christmas, and I carefully set them up last night. I used the Remington UMC round to set the sizing and seating die, but my first 10 rounds came out so mixed last night that I stopped. I'm going to pick up some fresh Starline brass at Sportsman on my way home tonight to see of that makes a difference, but I thought I'd check in here and see what other ideas everyone else had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G W Wade Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Hopefully you have a good caliper. Use it to measure the diameter of the case from the mouth to the rim. Then check the bullet seating depth, Some bullets seem to vary enough they catch on the forward edge of the chamber. It's a fine line for amount of crimp to use , remembering 45 acp headspaces on the case mouth. Good luck GW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazy Eeyour Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Try using a separate crimping die. Suggest either https://www.midwayusa.com/product/716704/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die or https://www.midwayusa.com/product/709739/redding-combination-taper-crimp-die I use both but kind of favor the Redding. Both work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene, SASS # 27489 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Not sure if this will help, but... I had an Old Vaquero with convertible cylinders some years back. The 45acp cylinder headspaces on the case mouth in a cylinder. What I found on mine that the length of the brass made a difference. That was so long ago I couldn't tell you the length, but I needed to sort my brass to reload for that gun. About 10-15% of my brass was slightly too long and would not seat far enough to let the cylinder turn. Otherwise, I might just suggest the Lee Factory Crimp Die. For autoloaders, I have never had a 45acp round fail to chamber, and so have never used a case gauge. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Bet you are using fired brass. .45 Auto guns often do not have a "full-support" chamber. And some folks like to run real hot loads in them. And chamber checkers are REAL tight in their dimensions. All 3 of these facts lead to failure to chamber check in a cartridge gauge. Even though the rounds probably easily fall into the chamber of your barrel. You will, if you measure the OD of the cases that fail to check out, probably find the lower 1/4 of the case has swelled a little. If that area gets over ABOUT 0.476" diameter, the check gauge catches it, about 3/4 of the way into the gauge. If ammo hangs up just 50 thousandths of an inch short of going all the way in, then that is a large "rim" on the case head. Although the SAAMI chamber dimensions allow larger than 0.476" diameter rims, all the check gauges I have tried don't. Both of those problems are solved easily by buying a Lee Factory Crimp Die, and the "bulge buster (base sizer) kit" from Lee. Take the guts out of the crimp die. Use the parts from the bulge buster base sizer kit in a single-stage press and push the brass (either before or after loading) completely through the factory crimp die body. The carbide ring in the die will take off any bulges or large rims because the carbide ring has a hole of 0.476". Why doesn't your .45 auto sizer die remove the bulge or rim excess? It's doesn't reach far enough down to size the case wall just above the extractor groove, nor can it touch the rim. Here's a catalog listing for the bulge buster: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012847155/lee-bulge-buster-base-sizing-kit-380-auto-40-s-and-w-45-acp and the Lee FCD die: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/716704/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die Now, a third common problem is that you have used a slug that catches in the "throat" area of the gauge die. If you are shooting a 230 grain round nose, SOME DESIGNS of those are real sensitive to seating depth. Seat the bullets so that the starting point of the nose curve (called the ogive) is just barely out of the case mouth. This keeps lead of the bullet nose from jamming into the rifling that starts almost immediately ahead of the chamber in a 1911 barrel. Fourth, and not all that common, is lead shaving in the crimp because you did not bell the case mouth enough. You can see that problem as small lead bulges right at the case mouth. Good loading technique leaves no lead shavings there. For range brass that I use, I find about 10% of the brass will not chamber check when loaded because the base swelled up when someone fired a heavy load. A quick pass through "bulge busting" and those loaded rounds will chamber check just fine. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Make sure your F/L size die touches the shell plate when the ram is extended. Always, seat and crimp on 2 separate stations. You want to close the edge of case mouth to no larger than .450" dia. in the tapper crimp die. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Rich Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 36 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: Bet you are using fired brass. .45 Auto guns often do not have a "full-support" chamber. And some folks like to run real hot loads in them. And chamber checkers are REAL tight in their dimensions. All 3 of these facts lead to failure to chamber check in a cartridge gauge. Even though the rounds probably easily fall into the chamber of your barrel. You will, if you measure the OD of the cases that fail to check out, probably find the lower 1/4 of the case has swelled a little. If that area gets over 0.473" diameter, the check gauge catches it, about 3/4 of the way into the gauge. If ammo hangs up just 50 thousandths of an inch short of going all the way in, then that is a large "rim" on the case head. Although the SAAMI chamber dimensions allow larger than 0.473" diameter rims, all the check gauges I have tried don't. Both of those problems are solved easily by buying a Lee Factory Crimp Die, and the "bulge buster (base sizer) kit" from Lee. Take the guts out of the crimp die. Use the parts from the bulge buster base sizer kit in a single-stage press and push the brass (either before or after loading) completely through the factory crimp die body. The carbide ring in the die will take off any bulges or large rims because the carbide ring has a hole of 0.473". Why doesn't your .45 auto sizer die remove the bulge or rim excess? It's doesn't reach far enough down to size the case wall just above the extractor groove, nor can it touch the rim. Here's a catalog listing for the bulge buster: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1012847155/lee-bulge-buster-base-sizing-kit-380-auto-40-s-and-w-45-acp and the Lee FCD die: https://www.midwayusa.com/product/716704/lee-carbide-factory-crimp-die Now, a third common problem is that you have used a slug that catches in the "throat" area of the gauge die. If you are shooting a 230 grain round nose, those are real sensitive to seating depth. Seat the bullets so that the starting point of the nose curve (called the ogive) is just barely out of the case mouth. This keeps lead of the bullet nose from jamming into the rifling that starts almost immediately ahead of the chamber in a 1911 barrel. Fourth, and not all that common, is lead shaving in the crimp because you did not bell properly. You can see that problem as small lead bulges right at the case mouth. Good loading technique leaves no lead shavings there. For range brass that I use, I find about 10% of the brass will not chamber check when loaded because the base swelled up. A quick pass through "bulge busting" and those loaded rounds will chamber check just fine. Good luck, GJ If you are using a 45 Colt bullet the nose may be too fat. Try coating the entire cartridge with magic marker and then try to chamber it it will remove the mm where ever it makes contact with the chamber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Red Eye Jim said: About 1 in 4 of rounds are coming out not able to fit all the way into the cartridge gauge. I know this is going to be an issue because I purchased some re-manufactured rounds with lead only bullets so that I could use them in my 3.5" Ruger NMV that is chambered for .45 ACP. I found that some of those rounds would cause problems for the cylinder to turn. When I started gauging those rounds I found the ones that were causing the problem wouldn't slip all the way in. I'm using the same 200 Grain RNFP PC rounds from Badman that I use for .45 Colt. When I first set up to do .45 ACP I had the same problem and it ended up that I was not crimping enough. It seemed like it would have been a sizing issue but it wasn't. I just crimped them a little more and everything worked out great for 4 years now no ammo issues with my 1911s. Same bullet by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 OP-what's you COAL of the finished round? You want 1.235-1.245 in length. Any longer and the bullet shoulder will interfere with the leade in the chamber. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 Quote I'm using the same 200 Grain RNFP PC rounds from Badman Crimping into the land that is above (toward the bullet nose) from the crimp groove when loading .45 auto? Here's a pic of the bullet (below). I've marked about where the parallel section of the nose stops and the ogive section starts. If you are seating so the case mouth is LOWER than where the nose ogive starts, you probably are jamming the nose of the slug into the rifling. That bullet is a little trickier to load in .45 auto case than slugs designed for the 1911. But it will work fine if you load it right. Mike your loaded round right at the mouth of the brass. I taper crimp my .45 auto loads so as to have a mouth diameter (of the brass) right at 0.471" If you don't remove all the expander bell (to get down to about 0.471) the mouth will hang in the gauge. Looking down on tip of loaded round, about 1/2 of the thickness of the brass should still be visible. The rest crimps into the bullet metal. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 Lyman Reloading manual, 50th Edition: as noted: the .45ACP headspaced on the case mouth: where the arrow ".473" is pointing I like to use a regular 230 ball -- the one made for the 45ACP: Notice that it does not have a crimp groove they end up like this: it's hard to see in this px but the bullet is seated even with the point where it changes size I try to follow the instructions in my Lyman Loaders manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VICIOUS, SASS#8014 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 Howdy; I have done well at local match's against better faster shooter doing exactly the stuff Garrison Joe has stated. That is my gun always fired and not jammed, theres failed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted December 29, 2018 Share Posted December 29, 2018 Quote my gun always fired and not jammed Perfectly reliable guns and ammo are worth more than their weight in gold. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 Read Garrison Joe's first post, there's lots of good information in it. Is the brass your using from your 1911 or purchased? If it's from your gun, I would double check the sizing die, crimp and OAL. If it's purchased brass I'd bet it's bulged cases. The bulge buster works awesome as GJ pointed out. The Lee FCD works very well too. 25% is a lot for bulges, go over your entire die set up and crimp. Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eye Jim Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 I want to thank everyone who posted, and I sorry it took so long for me to reply. Part of it is that I'm swamped with holiday stuff, and part because I couldn't get to the indoor range until this morning. Here's what I found: I had the seating die set to seat a round ball at 1.275 OL. Problem is that I'm using 200 RNFP coated bullets from Badman Bullets, as I tend to want to minimize and use as much of the same components across my reloading as possible, and these are what I use for .45 Colt which was easy for me to setup and get running. Using this seating die with these bullets meant an OL of about 1.22ish but the top of the case was just past the lube groove. I decided to take the seating die down another half turn and ended up at OL of 1.1745, but put the top case into cannelure/crimp grove so it looks more like a short .45 Colt overall. That seemed to fix the fit for the cartridge gauge. Now the cylinder for the Vaquero might be even picker for the fit, but that is either because of the case length or that .476 width at the base. I'm not 1005 sure. The new starline brass worked perfectly today in both the revolver and my Taurus 845. (I don't currently have a 1911, but hope to resolve that in the coming year.) Where I did start to have trouble was with the once fired brass. Some of it worked fine, however some had to be forced into the revolver to allow the cylinder to spin smoothly. Now I realize that I'm only going to be using this pistol at monthlies, so I'm not overly concerned, however, in some cases the once fired brass did not cycle the 845 perfectly, especially when firing one handed. I know I could likely fix this with a couple more tenths of powder, but I may hold off making that adjustment until after I actually get a 1911. Any other thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 Get a LEE Factory Crimp Die. I have no issues getting my .45acp loads to chamber in a 'tite' chambered BAR-STO barrel. How do the cases fit after sizing, and before you seat the bullet? OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 One-handed operation of most automatics require a firm grip, no flex at wrist. If you're not having issues with operation two-handed, I'd look at your grip and stability of your one-handed hold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 Quote once fired brass. Some of it worked fine, however some had to be forced into the revolver to allow the cylinder to spin smoothly. OK, there is your main remaining problem. The fired brass is still bulged at the base. Otherwise, the new Starline would not be fitting well and the reloaded fired brass not be fitting in your revolver! Bulged brass! That bulge is quite capable of making your Taurus auto hang up feeding the occasional round, too. Fix the bulges in your loading of used brass first. Then you can run down any other problems. Glad that going to a deeper seating depth fixed the nose jamming in the check gauge. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abilene Slim SASS 81783 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 15 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said: OK, there is your main remaining problem. The fired brass is still bulged at the base. Otherwise, the new Starline would not be fitting well and the reloaded fired brass not be fitting in your revolver! Bulged brass! That bulge is quite capable of making your Taurus auto hang up feeding the occasional round, too. Fix the bulges in your loading of used brass first. Then you can run down any other problems. Glad that going to a deeper seating depth fixed the nose jamming in the check gauge. Good luck, GJ This, this and this x 1,000. You need the Lee Bulge Buster die. Joe told me about this years ago and I've not had a problem since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.D. Daily Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 With the 1st firing the brass is drawn. With rimmed straight walled cases this doesn't cause issues with head spacing; however, with bottle neck and rimless cases case length is an issue with once fired cases. After resizing the cases must be trimmed. After the 1st reloading the case length doesn't have to be checked after each resizing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 Never had ANY need to EVER trim a .45 auto case. They just DO NOT stretch enough to make any difference. Concentrate on the bulges in the case. (Been loading my batch of .45 cases since 1972. Still find a few 1952 WCC (Winchester) and 1961 and 2 RA (Remington Arms) military cases to toss out of my collection. A case trimmer has never been used on any of them. Primer pocket reamer - that's a different story). Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunder Creek Kid Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 Get a Lee bulge buster, as stated earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329 Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 Just ordered one Thanks for the tip --Dawg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted December 31, 2018 Share Posted December 31, 2018 OP-What's the brand name of the .45acp dies you are using? FWIW: been loading .45acp for decades-Never once has there been the need to trim the case OAL. Also-I'm using 45yo RCBS carbide dies, and a LEE, FCD in my D/550 press. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eye Jim Posted January 3, 2019 Author Share Posted January 3, 2019 Dillon. I didn't think it was case length, but I thought someone mentioned it. I just wasn't sure. I just didn't have a real good way to checking size at the range, so I was guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted January 3, 2019 Share Posted January 3, 2019 I, myself, have never run into a stretched 45ACP case in nearly 43 years of competing with 'em and 40 years of reloading 'em. I load 'em on a Dillon with a combination of Dillon, RCBS & Lee Crimp dies. I have been using the same bullet as the OP (from another supplier), and until I started with this bullet I'd never run into a chambering problem. I got a Lee FCD die and ended those problems. It's the only FCD die I use, as I still believe that it's just the lazy man's way around not adjusting a seat/crimp die correctly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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