Full Pistol Reload

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

6 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

First shot on last target knocked the target over. Shot it three more times before it hit the ground for a clean stage. "I shoot them till they are down"! Spotters were silent just looking at each other. Flying mud behind the target was not from a miss.

 

We tell our shooters NOT to shoot at a broken/failing/falling target -- no way to tell where the lead will go after it hits the target.  "Shoot where it was" is more safe IMHO.  They will still be scored as hits because of the target malfunction, and no spotters end up eating lead bounceback.

 

6 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

Cowboy up and just shoot it!

 

No offense, but that reminds me so much of high school coaches in my day, urging injured players to 'man up" and play anyway.

Folks have brought up enough safety issues to be cautious about doing this.

As a match official, safety must come first.

I'm not saying not to do it, but I think we must be cautious, and think whether it can really be done safely by all our shooters.

Just my $.02

--Dawg

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

4 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

Cowboy up and just shoot it!

I love when fast shooters get all riled up over something "different". Shows they aren't as good as they think they are...

I love it when wire posters make poorly informed comments.  

Shows they aren't as clever as they think they are...

 

I don't care what you throw in front of the fast shooters. 

They will handle it and still come out on top.

 

Sometimes it's not about challenging the shooter or upping the difficulties; sometimes it is simply some stuff isn't fun. 

And silly me; I thought it was supposed to be about fun.

And I have NEVER stood at the loading table and thought, "Wheeee, this is as good as it gets.  I ain't gonna do nothing today more fun than load this pistol"

 

Blanket claiming that shooters dont want to do something because of they are not as good as they think is ignorant.

 

Sometimes they don't want to do it; because it is just stupid.

 

 

[Captain Bill Burt]

17 hours ago, The Rainmaker, SASS #11631 said:

I hear ya, Stump. As the stage writer for our club, I'd get skinned if I put a reload in... then they'd get mean!

Don’t even think about it!

 

A full pistol reload would not keep me from shooting a match, but if I had the option to shoot somewhere else that day I would. I’ve been shooting in SASS for 8 years now and I’ve reached the point where I’m a bit more selective about what matches I shoot. There are only four Saturdays in most months and I am not willing to drive for hours and spend one of those precious days shooting a match that for whatever reason I don’t find enjoyable. I vote with my feet and my $.

[Captain Bill Burt]

24 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I love it when wire posters make poorly informed comments.  

Shows they aren't as clever as they think they are...

 

I don't care what you throw in front of the fast shooters. 

They will handle it and still come out on top.

 

Sometimes it's not about challenging the shooter or upping the difficulties; sometimes it is simply some stuff isn't fun. 

And silly me; I thought it was supposed to be about fun.

And I have NEVER stood at the loading table and thought, "Wheeee, this is as good as it gets.  I ain't gonna do nothing today more fun than load this pistol"

 

Blanket claiming that shooters dont want to do something because of they are not as good as they think is ignorant.

 

Sometimes they don't want to do it; because it is just stupid.

 

 

Broadly speaking I think it’s possible to group MDs into two groups, those who see their job as putting on a fun match and those who want to challenge the shooter on every stage to help ‘develop’ them as a shooter. I don’t care for the latter point of view.

 

When I started as an MD Marauder talked to me about what level of stage difficulty is fun and adds to the match and when you can go to far on a stage, or have too many challenge stages in a match. I think he was exactly right. 

[Max Payne]

To Rainmaker:   Your response was correct! And, yes, that's exactly what would happen!

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

Sounds to me like people like the idea.  Some don't, but it feels like more people than not are at least curious about the idea.

 

Yes, I would use either my Schofield or more likely my New Model 3's on such a stage.  Or maybe the Merwin & Hulbert....

 

 

But seriously, while seeing it on every stage would be tedious, I think it could be interesting to have it on one over the course of an entire match. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

6 hours ago, Blast Masterson said:

Why would that be? If you don't break the 170, how is it dangerous? If you can't load on the stage, you prolly can't at the loading table either! Loading on the clock is totally different as the shooter is compelled to load as quickly as possible where brain fade and fumbling can occur.

 

"Unsafe loading" at the loading table is a MDQ, is it not?  It is not. There are infractions at the loading table that can result in a SDQ or MDQ such as an accidental discharge (MDQ). There is no "unsafe loading" rule. There is an "unsafe firearm handling" rule (SDQ), but that's not limited to the loading table.

 

To me, our game is cowboy action shooting, not cowboy action loading.

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

The only problem is what do you do with the cap and ball shooters?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

1 hour ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

The only problem is what do you do with the cap and ball shooters?

 

I posted the answer to that (directly from the SHB) TWICE on the first page of this thread. 

 

 

 

[Assassin]

I really don't see it as a safety issue. Time is the issue. Shooters jack rifle rounds out and fling live rounds 10 feet behind them. SG shells are shucked out onto the ground without pause. 

We can even pick up rounds off the ground, just so we do it safely. 

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

50 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

I posted the answer to that (directly from the SHB) TWICE on the first page of this thread. 

The only problem is it would have to be announced before the shoot so you make sure all C&B shooters bring an extra gun. We can't assume that all C&B shooters bring 3 revolvers with them every time. The OP was about RELOADING on the clock not just loading!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

18 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

The only problem is it would have to be announced before the shoot so you make sure all C&B shooters bring an extra gun. We can't assume that all C&B shooters bring 3 revolvers with them every time. The OP was about RELOADING on the clock not just loading!

 

Good point. ... (or a spare cylinder)

(misunderstood your initial question) 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

I would be willing to loan one of my top breaks to a C&B shooter to use on the one stage if there's a problem.    Write the stage instructions to give them the option of so borrowing a gun if they wish to with no penalty for shooting "out of category" if the reload is too difficult for them to deal with.

[Captain Clark]

6 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Broadly speaking I think it’s possible to group MDs into two groups, those who see their job as putting on a fun match and those who want to challenge the shooter on every stage to help ‘develop’ them as a shooter. I don’t care for the latter point of view.

 

When I started as an MD Marauder talked to me about what level of stage difficulty is fun and adds to the match and when you can go to far on a stage, or have too many challenge stages in a match. I think he was exactly right. 

Captain Bill Burt is spot on with his assessment of match designs IMO.

Fun sells your match!

 There was an annual match in New Mexico that was wildly popular with everything going for it, until for some reason a co-match director decided that "the fast shooters needed to be slowed down". It went from fun to a total train wreck the next couple years. The top competitors from around the Southwest were still fast, but there were your regular shooters that withdrew and swore to never return and the match suffered until it ceased a couple years ago mostly due poor attendance and a reputation as a quirky whacky match! It became characterized as "Calculus with a Rifle" The new club officers now have a hell -of-a battle on their hands trying to resurrect their annual shoot this upcoming year. Yes its refreshing to have something outside the box, but too much of the, challenge the shooter mentality will cause attendance to suffer greatly. Fun sells your match, and it is an entertainment value that is sought as much as a competition for many!

 

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

I have the daunting task on building on the matches put together by Creeker and company.

I can GUARANTEE you that it won't be putting targets at 25 yards and putting in full pistol reloads.

My job is to add fun elements to the shoot and keep the basic flavor of the overall stew.

If I could figure out a way of having every shooter shoot clean and under 20 seconds a stage I would do it.

Nothing is more satisfying than seeing a shooter shoot the fastest stage they ever shot....... The smile is brighter than the sun. 

 

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

3 hours ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

I would be willing to loan one of my top breaks to a C&B shooter to use on the one stage if there's a problem.    Write the stage instructions to give them the option of so borrowing a gun if they wish to with no penalty for shooting "out of category" if the reload is too difficult for them to deal with.

If you shoot C&B often it is normal to bring a couple of spare revolvers to any match just to be able to finish a match. If I don't need a spare then I can always share an extra one for someone in need. It is not difficult to cap and extra revolver and takes less time than exchanging a cylinder and then capping it for your rrload.  DC

[Rye Miles #13621]

6 hours ago, Diamond Curly SASS#57086 said:

If you shoot C&B often it is normal to bring a couple of spare revolvers to any match just to be able to finish a match. If I don't need a spare then I can always share an extra one for someone in need. It is not difficult to cap and extra revolver and takes less time than exchanging a cylinder and then capping it for your rrload.  DC

Yea I get all that but still the C&B shooters should be advised in advance. Not all C&B shooters bring two revolvers!! Borrowing a revolver from someone is fine but can you really depend on that? Some folks don't like shooting other people's guns! I have to change my mind on this a FULL RELOAD is a bad idea! I doubt if anyone is going to do it anyway so this is a moot point!

[Grumpy Old Man]

I can see Thunder Creek Kid doing it on our 1st Wednesday match. He likes to do really oddball stuff. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

40 minutes ago, Grumpy Old Man said:

I can see Thunder Creek Kid doing it on our 1st Wednesday match. He likes to do really oddball stuff. 

Thunder Creek doing oddball stuff??? Wow I'm shocked!!!!

 

 

[Attica Jack #23953]

I can hear the grumbling now on how long the match is going to take.    Some people have a hard time loading off the clock....nightmare.

[Waimea]

On 12/27/2018 at 7:22 PM, Redwood Kid said:

I just hope I decide to bring the schofield that day. 

If you did you would be the most popular guy there.

[Knucky McPee]

The Renton Fish and Game Club in Washington have a annual match Un Hombre Muy Malo put on by the RUCUS Cowboys.   Every year they put on this two day match.  This year it is scheduled for June 1 & 2.  Every stage has both pistol and rifle reloads and some stages are full pistol reloads on the clock.  Schofields are popular, for those lucky enough to have a pair, and the cap and ball shooters usually have another pistol and load the caps on the clock.  The stages are a lot of fun and theme based.  So if your in for a lot of shooting and banging steel come on out.  Bring lots of ammo and a smile.  http://rucascowboys.com

 

[Assassin]

If I were to use a full pistol reload on a stage I would only use one pistol. Then, everyone would have a 2nd pistol and C & B shooters would be covered.

Probably just do 4 shotgun targets and 1 pistol array, then the reload or something similar. The safety issue would be guys bringing guns they are not as familiar with, such as a break top revolver and breaking the 170. It would be something to try out at a monthly match and see if shooters enjoy the stage and if they can manipulate a reload safely. A full reload would be something different than the same old 10-10-4 scenario.

[Griff]

1 hour ago, Assassin said:

If I were to use a full pistol reload on a stage I would only use one pistol. Then, everyone would have a 2nd pistol and C & B shooters would be covered.

Probably just do 4 shotgun targets and 1 pistol array, then the reload or something similar. The safety issue would be guys bringing guns they are not as familiar with, such as a break top revolver and breaking the 170. It would be something to try out at a monthly match and see if shooters enjoy the stage and if they can manipulate a reload safely. A full reload would be something different than the same old 10-10-4 scenario.

So... you're saying start the stage with one loaded and one empty pistol... Eliminating either the rifle or the shotgun would bring the average stage time back in line with the std. 10-10-4... probably.  

[Assassin]

43 minutes ago, Griff said:

So... you're saying start the stage with one loaded and one empty pistol... Eliminating either the rifle or the shotgun would bring the average stage time back in line with the std. 10-10-4... probably.  

You come to the match with 2 pistols. For those using suppository type ammo, they only need to carry one pistol for the reload stage. C & B shooters can stage a second pistol or uncapped cylinder. The spare can be carried in order to confuse the cartridge shooters or just leave it in the cart. (it's not often that I get to use the term "suppository"). Back when you started, shooters only carried one pistol. I also remember one pistol, we had to reload more frequently.

[Rye Miles #13621]

On 12/27/2018 at 4:10 PM, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said:

 

Never seen a match where this was required; a full reload of one of your pistols. 

 

.

 

Notice he says a full RELOAD!!! I think he means to shoot your pistols then RELOAD one. The key word here is RE-LOAD!!

 

H.K. Uriah is that what you meant?

 

Thunder Creek had a stage where all your guns were staged and one pistol was loaded the other was on the table with 5 rounds next to it!

 

That's fine and all but it's NOT a RE-LOAD!!!!

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

One of the Clubs I shot at every year had at least one stage every match that called for a full Pistol reload....

The match director shot Schofields ......

I never had an issue with it ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

53 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Notice he says a full RELOAD!!! I think he means to shoot your pistols then RELOAD one. The key word here is RE-LOAD!!

 

H.K. Uriah is that what you meant?

 

Thunder Creek had a stage where all your guns were staged and one pistol was loaded the other was on the table with 5 rounds next to it!

 

That's fine and all but it's NOT a RE-LOAD!!!!

 

Yes, that is what I meant.   Shoot both pistols dry and then reload one of them.

 

I remember once or twice when the stage instructions had you holding one pistol in a holster, and the second was staged down range.   I thought it was fun.  One of the gunfighters good naturedly grumbled.   The other just shrugged and did it double duelist style.

[Rillito Red]

On 12/27/2018 at 4:34 PM, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Once upon a time, at an annual match (early 2000s), we had an unannounced Josie Wales stage (six pistols). If you couldn't borrow enough pistols, you had to reload. Luckily, between Hubby and I, we had six pistols. I can't imagine reloading four guns on the clock. IIRC, no one on our posse had to do that.

 

I remember that.  On our posse everyone was borrowing guns.  The funny thing was that everybody missed with their own guns but were dead on with the borrowed pistols!

 

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

55 minutes ago, Rillito Red said:

 

I remember that.  On our posse everyone was borrowing guns.  The funny thing was that everybody missed with their own guns but were dead on with the borrowed pistols!

 

I miss you and your sweet wife!

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

I find it interesting that we saw are largest growth spurt within the game when this type of thing was still pretty common. Wasn’t so terrible then I guess.

[Tyrel Cody]

10 minutes ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

I find it interesting that we saw are largest growth spurt within the game when this type of thing was still pretty common. Wasn’t so terrible then I guess.

 

But did it have more to do with a good economy and an age base of folks that grew up watching westerns on TV.

 

I feel like we may be having a bit of a resurgence right now due to a better economy. 

[Knucky McPee]

Personally I love shooting the annual two day match Un Hombre Muy Malo.  Here is a video I found of our departed friend Jess Ducky shooting a stage with a rifle reload and a full pistol reload and plenty of shotgun.  As I said this match is a hoot so come on out or make the road trip and bring lots of ammo and a smile.  RUCAS provides the rest and plenty off steel to shoot at.

 

 

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

22 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

But did it have more to do with a good economy and an age base of folks that grew up watching westerns on TV.

 

I feel like we may be having a bit of a resurgence right now due to a better economy. 

My point was it was done then and folks still joined up and shot.....

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

22 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

 

But did it have more to do with a good economy and an age base of folks that grew up watching westerns on TV.

 

I feel like we may be having a bit of a resurgence right now due to a better economy. 

My point was it was done then and folks still joined up and shot.....