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Seeing a miss

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Over the past few months in various WTC threads it's been proclaimed that, "If you don't see a miss, then it's a hit."  The implication being that, if you don't see dirt fly or vegetation on the berm behind the target move, then you can't call a miss.

 

Hogwash.   Spotters are supposed to be watching the targets, not the berm/area behind the target.  Did the bullet hit the target.  Yes = hit.  No = miss.  Not sure = hit.

 

 

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Not seeing target movement

 

Not seeing an impact

 

These would be other ways of "seeing" a miss.

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1 hour ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

Hearing a gong works too.

But you can't hear a miss;)

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Seeing the bullet hit the Dirt 12 feet to the  side of the target and 4 feet behind the target also indicates a Hit ,,, Not a miss ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

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^ Isn't that backwards, Jabez?  12 feet to the side or 4 feet behind would be a Miss, no?

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2 minutes ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

^ Isn't that backwards, Jabez?  12 feet to the side or 4 feet behind would be a Miss, no?

 I believe he is encouraging the use of common sense. If the shooter is more or less pointing at the target and the bullet strike is 12 feet wide and 4 feet deep, common sense says it had to hit something to be that far off target.

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Perhaps, Goody.  It just read funny to me.

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56 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But you can't hear a miss;)

 A BIG YES to this. I shoot at a monthly match that has some really dead (sound wise) targets. A couple of spotters have mentioned if they can’t hear it hit it’s a miss at this match and they call a lot of misses, not fun.

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6 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 I believe he is encouraging the use of common sense. If the shooter is more or less pointing at the target and the bullet strike is 12 feet wide and 4 feet deep, common sense says it had to hit something to be that far off target.

Bingo !!!

 

Jabez Cowboy

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I have had my share of misses called hits and hits called misses as a shooter.  But what really irks me is as a TO you turn around and a spotter changes there miss count a couple times based on the number of fingers other counters are holding up.  Looks like some sort of SASS sign language.

 

Totes

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1 minute ago, Yul Lose said:

 A BIG YES to this. I shoot at a monthly match that has some really dead (sound wise) targets. A couple of spotters have mentioned if they can’t hear it hit it’s a miss at this match and they call a lot of misses, not fun.

THIS is especially disheartening for frontiersmen who shoot .36 caliber soft lead balls.  Even good targets don't make allot of noise with soft lead so relying solely on hearing the hit is fundamentally flawed.

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11 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

THIS is especially disheartening for frontiersmen who shoot .36 caliber soft lead balls.  Even good targets don't make allot of noise with soft lead so relying solely on hearing the hit is fundamentally flawed.

Exactly. And throw in smoke to obscure the target as well and us lowly 36 cal shooters get a lot of misses called. 

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Solution options:

 

Paint the targets between shooters.

Use paper targets.

Use all knockdown targets.

Try new counters.

Give everyone a trophy.

Go back to a minimum velocity of 650'/sec.

 

"Major tongue in cheek comments." ;^)

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I agree that all means of input should be used, but disregarding the dirt behind the target is not a good way to go. If the bullet misses the target, It WILL hit the dirt behind the target (in most cases).. very few ranges are shooting targets that are placed in vegetation. Watching for that miss, is IMO the best way to determine if it was truly a  miss. If the dirt kicks up completely out of line with the target, then you know that the bullet hit SOMETHING in order for it to impact other than behind the target. Yes... if you see the target wiggle or move, it is indeed a good indication that the target was hit.... but in this game we are NOT CHARGED with determining hits, rather determining misses, and doing it contrary is not always the best way to do it. Bottom line is use everything at your disposal. 

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31 minutes ago, Totes Magoats said:

I have had my share of misses called hits and hits called misses as a shooter.  But what really irks me is as a TO you turn around and a spotter changes there miss count a couple times based on the number of fingers other counters are holding up.  Looks like some sort of SASS sign language.

 

Totes

Then it is time to replace some spotters as they either are not sure of what they are to do, been doing it for to many shooter and are getting tired  or worse, not taking the responsibility as seriously as they should.  Ask them if this is the way they would want a spotter to score them when they are on the line.  I always consider this quote from a while back and also use it when I am instructing.

 

“When you take on any RO position, especially that of Spotter or CRO/TO, you are taking a controlling position in the game and a great deal of responsibility; you should treat it as such.  Spotters are one of the most important posse duties, yet it continues to be one of the weakest links.  We need to be fair, honest, know the rules so that we can make the correct calls.  We need to be alert and give the “Benefit of Doubt” (look at things from the shooters point of view) where it is due, and finally we need to help each other whenever possible.  Do the job right for several shooters, then pass it on to someone else who is fresh”  – “Snakebite” Former RO Committee Chairman.

 

Charlie

 

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8 minutes ago, J. Mark Flint #31954 LIFE said:

I'm stunned!  Do you mean to tell me none of you can see the bullets in flight?

Some of our shooters have light enough loads that when the light is right in the morning I can see their bullets.

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So as a BP shooter and cap and ball shooter with pure lead balls. I know I have had misses called on me because they couldn't "HEAR" the hit or see it because of the smoke. So get in position to see the target, hearing isn't hitting.

Ike

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49 minutes ago, Cliff Hanger #3720LR said:

Solution options:

 

Paint the targets between shooters.

Use paper targets.

Use all knockdown targets.

Try new counters.

Give everyone a trophy.

Go back to a minimum velocity of 650'/sec.

 

"Major tongue in cheek comments." ;^)

Who is this Major Tongue-In-Cheek? A new player?

And why doesn't he post his own comments?

Spotters should pay attention with all the faculties they have. If you are having a hard time spotting... DON"T!

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mmm my only gripe  when I'm the TO I see lots of misses called hits,,, BUT they ALWAYS see my misses!!!    :huh:;):P:D

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I’ll admit, my first year or 2 off SASS  I would spy other counters if I wasn’t sure. I think a lot of newer shooters do this. Now, I have to have 2 indicators to call a miss. See it hit dirt, not hear it, see/hear it hit wrong type target. Squib. Only one indicator to call it a hit. See it, hear it, target wiggles, paint flies, whatever any one is good enough to call a hit. I try to pay particular attention to dead targets, and also Point those out to other spotters/TO.

If I don’t KNOW it’s a miss, then it’s a hit. 

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3 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But you can't hear a miss;)

Ya, you can out here-it's called a ricochet. ^_^

OLG

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I"m with you Hoss, when your new there are those moments your not real sure but the T.O is lookin right at cha.  I take the responsibility of spotting seriously and just want to do the best i can.  Those darn light edge hit's are the ones that get me sometimes, ya see dirt fly but don't hear the ring of steel.  I finally calmed down make my calls the way i see em no matter what the other spotters are showing.  What if one of them was wrong??

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If you're not certain of a miss just call clean. There's no malice in that call. If you can't make the call in the time the penalty will add to the stage time, it should be a NO CALL.

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3 hours ago, Totes Magoats said:

I have had my share of misses called hits and hits called misses as a shooter.  But what really irks me is as a TO you turn around and a spotter changes there miss count a couple times based on the number of fingers other counters are holding up.  Looks like some sort of SASS sign language.

 

Totes

It is for this reason I try to not look at the other spotters so they are not influencing my counting.

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Another great indicator is when Shooter calls miss on himself. “ Dagnabit” I’ve finally learned to quit doing that! 

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4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

But you can't hear a miss;)

 

22 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Ya, you can out here-it's called a ricochet. ^_^

OLG

Q. One

Occasionally, when I've heard a hit (bang then clang), didn't see a hit anywhere, and didn't call a miss; I've been overruled by the TO and other counters who said they saw it hit the stand. IMO, it is very difficult to see a hit on a rebar stand, which they were.

 

I have observed this many times. Is it a case of my hearing a miss? What are your thoughts on that situation?

 

Q. Two

The most egregious time it happened, I don't remember if I was a counter or was just an observer, listening to the conversation. I don't remember if it was the same or different TOs. One very popular shooter (I adore her, as does everyone) was said by some to have hit the stand. The TO called it a hit.  That same day, a not-so-popular shooter was said to hit the stand, she got a miss.

 

Neither had unanimous calls by the counters. 

 

Thoughts?

 

 

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AM-#2, was it the same TO for both calls?

If yes-That TO should be relived of the counter, ASAP.

OLG

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First off, hitting the stand does not mean the shooter hit the “target”. Hitting the stand is a miss. Hitting the TARGET is not so long as the bullet hits the proper target. Spotting/receiving penalties is not a popularity contest (or it SHOULD not be ). Each shooter deserves equal benefit or penalty from the spotters etc. for their performance - not because of who they are. This also brings up the subject of spotters not calling penalties because some shooters have reputations for bullying the TO’s and spotters. But, that is a seperate discussion not to be pursued here. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Too Tall Bob said:

First off, hitting the stand does not mean the shooter hit the “target”. Hitting the stand is a miss. Hitting the TARGET is not so long as the bullet hits the proper target. Spotting/receiving penalties is not a popularity contest (or it SHOULD not be ). Each shooter deserves equal benefit or penalty from the spotters etc. for their performance - not because of who they are. This also brings up the subject of spotters not calling penalties because some shooters have reputations for bullying the TO’s and spotters. But, that is a seperate discussion not to be pursued here. 

 

Some folks might argue that a stand hit is a hit. Popcorn is ready.

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21 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

AM-#2, was it the same TO for both calls?

If yes-That TO should be relived of the counter, ASAP.

OLG

Like I wrote, I don't remember. I do agree with you. That was so wrong.

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20 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Some folks might argue that a stand hit is a hit. Popcorn is ready.

Caught ya!

405F2A14-F741-4694-B442-AD5AA7301E23.jpeg

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36 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

Some folks might argue that a stand hit is a hit. Popcorn is ready.

Don't you have some gun carts to build? :lol::P

OLG

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When you burn between 950 and 1,200 grains of Goex 3F per stage ,,,, Spotters Need to get out of a Bunch and out of the smoke behind me and  out to the side and use all senses to call misses ....

I also use Soft cast bullets that don't always ring poor targets ... Also my bullets get to the target pretty fast my rifle loads exceed the speed of sound so the BOOM and the Ring are Closer than so folks are used to ....  One spotter called me for 10 misses on the rifle he was standing right behind me (in the Smoke)thankfully the other spotters were to the side and saw all ten hits.... When he was quizzed he admitted that he had heard several clangs mingled in the Booms ,,, but since they were TOO close to the Boom they could not be hits from my gun and must be from another posse...

 

Jabez Cowboy

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