Shotgun question. Barrel material.

[Smokey Dave]

Howdy everyone. 

 

I'm like a lot of you, in the fact that I put a lot of emphasis on equipment correctness. I'd rather use an original gun (if I can afford it), or an accurate copy if available. With that said, I've been looking at shotguns. The more modern examples of SxS guns, leave me a little cold. I would much prefer an old gun in my hands. Just feels better to me. Sorry for the ramble, I'll get to the actual question.

 

Are Damascus barreled guns legal, if shooting black powder? I read through the rules twice and there's no mention of it either way. Obviously we couldn't use them if we are shooting smokeless, but for BP they're perfectly safe.

 

There are a lot of old shotguns out there, with hammers and Damascus barrels, that are just waiting to be used. So what do you all think? Or did I just plain miss the rule against them somewhere?

 

Thanks for your opinions.

[Jess Money]

Do you already have a damascus twist barrel shotgun and you are asking questions about the legality of using it for SASS matches? 

[Smokey Dave]

1 minute ago, Jess Money said:

Do you already have a damascus twist barrel shotgun and you are asking questions about the legality of using it for SASS matches? 

 

No Sir, but I've been looking at them. I would like to use one in matches if it is legal.

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

Why? The problem is that unless its a real quality gun (LC Smith, etc) you don't know how good the barrels really are. Why not stick to solid steel barrels?

[Smokey Dave]

21 minutes ago, Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life said:

Why? The problem is that unless its a real quality gun (LC Smith, etc) you don't know how good the barrels really are. Why not stick to solid steel barrels?

 

I agree about the quality of the gun. It's actually my point. LC Smith, Parker, etc. All have a "feel" to them. It's missing in the modern guns. To me. They feel cheaper in the hand. Not sure if that makes sense. 

 

Basically it's like this, at least to me. Some folks go out of their way to be historically correct with everything. Even if they can't get originals, they get exact copies. SAA, 66 or 73 Winchester, all BP era guns. Why not go the extra mile and use a shotgun that was also designed for BP? Just for the fun of it.

[Bull Skinner]

There are period guns with steel barrels out there. I have a J A Stevens 235 made in 1925. It has hammers and steel barrels. Even better quality Damascus barrels using BP loads can let loose. I've been around to see two of them blow. One unwound like a toilet paper roll!

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Damascus barrels Legal in SASS?  Yes. 

 

If you blow up a gun, though, were you being safe?  

 

It's legal to use Damascus barrels with even smokeless.   It's probably very risky.   Especially if you are not an expert on their manufacture and have not had a recent proof test performed.  Some Damascus barreled doubles were built in the smokeless era, and the low power loads of the time were used in them.  Before 100 years of corrosion occurred.

 

What is the trade off between a style point you garner and a lawsuit from a posse member injured or killed by a gun coming apart?   

 

Be Safe

Have Fun

Be Safe

If you can do all three, great.  If you can't, don't shoot around me.  Please. 

 

If you look, many of the original doubles were made with fluid steel as well as Damascus.   The fluid steel fails a proof test less frequently than an old Damascus.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

Just for the fun of it, have one of you family members run the timer for you... Cuz I won't if you're shooting a Damascus barreled shotgun.

 

Phantom

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

Here is the thing about Damascus barrels. When they were made, they were safe to shoot. Many of the higher quality Damascus barrels were proofed for loads just as high as the fluid steel barrels of the day. The problem happens when corrosion sets in over time. Damascus barrels are made by welding and twisting many layers of steel and sometimes iron together. The welds in a Damascus barrel may be dozens of feet long. If corrosion starts inside the welds, where it is invisible from the surface, there is no telling how much pressure the barrel will take without bursting. In the 60 or so years since the barrel was made, there is no way to tell if corrosion has made it unsafe, other than firing proof loads in it.

 

There are lots of nice old shotguns on the used racks without resorting to Damascus barrels. I have been shooting this lovely old Stevens hammer gun for years in CAS. Much more graceful than most of the shotguns made today. A previous owner cut the barrels down to 24", other than that it is unchanged from the day it left the Stevens factory.

 

 

 

 

I see Damascus guns on the gun racks fairly often.

 

I wouldn't trust one unless I could get ahold of some proof loads, and shoot them in it. Tying the gun down of course and pulling the trigger from a safe distance with a string.

[Smokey Dave]

I guess that settles it. Thanks for all the input everyone. Style points are outweighed by safety, as it should be.

 

Driftwood, that Stevens is a thing of beauty. I'd be proud to own and shoot that gun. I also have a Stevens that belonged to my step father's Dad. It isn't a hammer gun and was made in the 50's. It's my go-to bird gun.

[Warden Callaway]

In any shotgun over 50 years old,  check or have checked the chambers.  Modern folded crimp shells and plastic wads were not invented until about 1960.  Many of the old guns have chambers long enough to chamber a modern 2-3/4" shell but not long enough to have room to open up the fold when firing.  The old ones had very short forcing cones ment for fiber wads. You can tell by seeing an abrupt bore size change at end of chamber.  Modern chambers have a funnel shape ahead of the end of the chambers.  Chambers can be recut to modern specifications.  

 

I can cover my bed with old doubles - most with Damascus barrels.  I shoot them all and shot most of them in cowboy matches.  But.., I shoot them with light black or BlackMZ powder loads.  And I get the approval of the match director before I use them. 

 

Probably the closest feel to an old gun is found in the CZ-USA line-up. 

 

Most of the distributors of cowboy guns have a model or two that are replicas of the old guns. 

 

 

An original Colt 1878 above a Cimmeron 1878. 

 

 

An original Colt 1878 10 gauge below a Cimmeron 1878

 

 

A Cimarron 1878 nested between original 10 and 12 gauge Colt 1887s.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

7 hours ago, Warden Callaway said:

In any shotgun over 50 years old,  check or have checked the chambers.  Modern folded crimp shells and plastic wads were not invented until about 1960.  Many of the old guns have chambers long enough to chamber a modern 2-3/4" shell but not long enough to have room to open up the fold when firing.  The old ones had very short forcing cones ment for fiber wads. You can tell by seeing an abrupt bore size change at end of chamber.  Modern chambers have a funnel shape ahead of the end of the chambers.  Chambers can be recut to modern specifications.  

 

I can cover my bed with old doubles - most with Damascus barrels.  I shoot them all and shot most of them in cowboy matches.  But.., I shoot them with light black or BlackMZ powder loads.  And I get the approval of the match director before I use them. 

 

Probably the closest feel to an old gun is found in the CZ-USA line-up. 

 

Most of the distributors of cowboy guns have a model or two that are replicas of the old guns. 

 

 

An original Colt 1878 above a Cimmeron 1878. 

 

 

An original Colt 1878 10 gauge below a Cimmeron 1878

 

 

A Cimarron 1878 nested between original 10 and 12 gauge Colt 1887s.

So you get the approval of those on your posse???

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

10 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Just for the fun of it, have one of you family members run the timer for you... Cuz I won't if you're shooting a Damascus barreled shotgun.

 

Phantom

Me either.........

I have seen one come apart with BP Loads.

OLG

[Ramblin Gambler]

I hope neither of you guys ever see an automobile accident.  You'll become shut ins if you realize how dangerous the world is. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Proof Loads.  Bull Pucky.  There is/are no regulated, certified, inspected, government nor private "Proof Houses" in the USA.  NONE.

SO, Where ya gonna go??  Proofbusters??  Plus the consideration, the only thing a "Proof Load" Proves, is the gun did or did not fail that ONE time.  It says nothing about rounds fired on down the line.  

 

Damascus Shotguns are a gamble.  Short of NDI inspection, there are no foolproof tests for and of a Damascus barrel.  One just never really knows.  I personally know of two individuals whom are missing generous chunks of their left hands.  Proud proponents of Damascus barrels right up until they weren't.

 

The ONLY WAY to safely shoot an original Damascus barrel is to have it "tubed" to a lesser gauge.  12 down to 20, etc.  A set of tubes aren't cheap.  But consider this as you champion Damascus barrels.  Just HOW MANY left hands to you have??

 

PLUS ONE TO Phantom!!!

[Trailrider #896]

To reiterate what Driftwood and Colorado Coffinmaker have posted:  Twist (Damascus) steel barrels, no matter the quality originally can have intergrannular corrosion along the weld boundaries!  There is NO WAY to test for these!  All the NDT tests will show the twist patterns, but have no way to determine the extent of the potential corrosion.  As CC mentioned, you could have a Damascus barreled gun "tubed".  I have several old guns that have fluid steel barrels, but short European chambers.  Rather than having the chambers lengthened, I bought (when they were made) Stevens "410er" inserts, which allow me to shoot 3" 410 shells. But that wouldn't qualify for SASS.  I also have a Belgian sxs hammer double, made around 1934, that has 70mm chambers, and is safe to shoot with Winchester Low-Noise, Low Recoil (aka Featherweights).  Great gun. But I quit shooting it because I was beating up the stock and even had a few scratches on the barrels!  Not safety issues, just didn't want to mess up a fine Belgian shotgun!

Bottom line....Damascus guns a great...hanging on the wall!

Merry Christmas, Pards!

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

7 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Me either.........

I have seen one come apart with BP Loads.

OLG

I have seen three rugers blown up. I think we should ban all rugers. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

5 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

I have seen three rugers blown up. I think we should ban all rugers. 

Then stop overloading'em 

OLG

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Then stop overloading'em 

OLG

I didn’t know that was a problem in sass. Not when I can see bullets coming out of guns and hitting targets. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

I didn’t know that was a problem in sass. Not when I can see bullets coming out of guns and hitting targets. 

SASS, NO

Real world--Oh heck ya..............

Even more so, when ones doesn't know how to calibrate a powder scale or fills the case with Bullseye. 

OLG

[St. Louis Suomi SASS #31905]

Howdy:

 

If you ever went to Friendship, Indiana where the National Muzzle Loading Rifle has it annual meets, you would probably have a heart attack.  I have shot there for many years and was surrounded by Damascus barreled double barrel shotguns.  Using black powder, of course.  Even in the Cartridge portion, there were several black powder double barrel shotgun using BP cartridges.  I never worried and still don't worry about this.  There are many fine shotguns LC Smith, LeFever, and several other high end European models.  The trick is not to load at the highest end.  Black Powder is safe.  Using Modern powders is asking for a problem.  Relining is prudent, but I think unnecessary in many cases.  JMHO

 

STL Suomi

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

8 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

I hope neither of you guys ever see an automobile accident.  You'll become shut ins if you realize how dangerous the world is. 

Okay tough guy, tell me all about my life experiences... Since you seem to know so much based on the fact that I don't want to be near Damascus barrel shotguns being shot by folks I don't know.

[Yul Lose]

8 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

I hope neither of you guys ever see an automobile accident.  You'll become shut ins if you realize how dangerous the world is. 

Ol’ Phantom has been up close and personal to automobile accidents and it didn’t scare him one bit, but being he’s in the gun business and won’t be the TO for someone shooting an old shotgun with Damascus barrels, I believe I’d stand back out of the way with him.

[Boomstick Bruce]

When I first started SASS two years ago, all I wanted was a damascus double. All I heard was "they're dangerous, they'll blow up, blah blah blah". And I stuck to my belief that the "danger" of damascus guns was all just a marketing ploy by gun manufacturers to sell new shotguns at the turn of the century and continued my hunt. But I came across a hell of a good deal on a single trigger Stevens 315 from the 1920's and have been shooting it since...

 

Two years later and after two state shoots, two dozen or so monthlys and dozens of range trips, I've seen the abuse my Stevens 315 has taken and the effects of that abuse. There is no way on God's green earth I'd ever shoot a Damascus gun for SASS. If our game can beat up a shotgun that's built like an anvil, I am terrified to see what it will do to an antique damascus gun...

[Chantry]

On 12/20/2018 at 9:16 PM, Smokey Dave said:

Howdy everyone. 

 

I'm like a lot of you, in the fact that I put a lot of emphasis on equipment correctness. I'd rather use an original gun (if I can afford it), or an accurate copy if available. With that said, I've been looking at shotguns. The more modern examples of SxS guns, leave me a little cold. I would much prefer an old gun in my hands. Just feels better to me. Sorry for the ramble, I'll get to the actual question.

 

Are Damascus barreled guns legal, if shooting black powder? I read through the rules twice and there's no mention of it either way. Obviously we couldn't use them if we are shooting smokeless, but for BP they're perfectly safe.

 

There are a lot of old shotguns out there, with hammers and Damascus barrels, that are just waiting to be used. So what do you all think? Or did I just plain miss the rule against them somewhere?

 

Thanks for your opinions.

 

This question comes up every once in a while and this thread contains the usual answers.

I have 5 Damascus barreled guns, 1 Lefever, which was marketed as safe for the smokeless loads of the period when it was made and 4 British hammer guns, 3 of which only have black powder proofs.  I use  all of these occasionally at a match with light BP loads.  The other British hammer gun was re-proofed by the Birmingham Proof House (http://gunproof.com/) in 2003 for 12g 2 3/4" chambers and 850 BAR (approximately 12,300 PSI) .  American made guns do not go through official proof or re-proof.

 

I like shooting my old guns, but as a regular main match gun it's probably not a good choice.  Unless you take your time like Driftwood, myself and probably Warden, the gun is going to be worked hard, much harder then most makers intended.  

 

Additionally, when one of these guns breaks a part, the repairs are VERY expensive and there aren't many gunsmiths qualified to repair the old guns properly.  Break a stock on an old gun and expect to pay $5000+ for a new stock and that doesn't include the blank.  I have one of my hammer guns with my gunsmith to have the 2 screws holding the hammers on replaced and I expect to pay about $400.  

 

And if the above hasn't discouraged you, then stick with the American made guns or British or French guns.  Both England and France had very strict proof laws.  I would stay away from 99% of the Belgian Damascus guns.

 

Here is a link to another discussion board that is far more informed regarding the old gun: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php

 

 

 

 

 

[Trailrider #896]

8 hours ago, Boomstick Bruce said:

When I first started SASS two years ago, all I wanted was a damascus double. All I heard was "they're dangerous, they'll blow up, blah blah blah". And I stuck to my belief that the "danger" of damascus guns was all just a marketing ploy by gun manufacturers to sell new shotguns at the turn of the century and continued my hunt. But I came across a hell of a good deal on a single trigger Stevens 315 from the 1920's and have been shooting it since...

 

Two years later and after two state shoots, two dozen or so monthlys and dozens of range trips, I've seen the abuse my Stevens 315 has taken and the effects of that abuse. There is no way on God's green earth I'd ever shoot a Damascus gun for SASS. If our game can beat up a shotgun that's built like an anvil, I am terrified to see what it will do to an antique damascus gun...

You bring up another point about gun use/abuse. Even the old gunfighters, who practiced with their arms didn't put as much ammo through their weapons in a lifetime that some CAS shooter will in a month or a year!  With the possible exception of the Army during the most extensive campaigns, guns just weren't shot that much.  Most cowboys, ranchers, farmers, etc., couldn't afford the quantity of ammo we handloaders create.  I doubt if the designers and manufacturers of most of the guns (John Moses Browning's designs being the exception) had any idea of the wear and tear to which we put our guns.  Also, how well were the BP guns cleaned? Especially with Damascus barrels, the answer to that is something unknown.  As Driftwood and I posted before, there is no way to determine intergranular  corrosion along the seams of the twists.  So, pardon me if I don't want to stand anywhere near a Damascus barreled gun!

Merry Christmas, Pards! 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

On 12/21/2018 at 8:16 AM, Ramblin Gambler said:

I hope neither of you guys ever see an automobile accident.  You'll become shut ins if you realize how dangerous the world is. 

I was a LEO-Tell me more about life will you........

OLG

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

3 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

You bring up another point about gun use/abuse. Even the old gunfighters, who practiced with their arms didn't put as much ammo through their weapons in a lifetime that some CAS shooter will in a month or a year!  With the possible exception of the Army during the most extensive campaigns, guns just weren't shot that much.  Most cowboys, ranchers, farmers, etc., couldn't afford the quantity of ammo we handloaders create.  I doubt if the designers and manufacturers of most of the guns (John Moses Browning's designs being the exception) had any idea of the wear and tear to which we put our guns.  Also, how well were the BP guns cleaned? Especially with Damascus barrels, the answer to that is something unknown.  As Driftwood and I posted before, there is no way to determine intergranular  corrosion along the seams of the twists.  So, pardon me if I don't want to stand anywhere near a Damascus barreled gun!

Merry Christmas, Pards! 

That might be true for mist guns, but the European shotguns were made to be shot and a lot. While we might put more rounds through our guns in a month than they did in a lifetime, trap shooters will put more rounds in a month than we will in a lifetime of sass shooting. 

[Trailrider #896]

3 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

That might be true for mist guns, but the European shotguns were made to be shot and a lot. While we might put more rounds through our guns in a month than they did in a lifetime, trap shooters will put more rounds in a month than we will in a lifetime of sass shooting. 

True.  But how many trap shooters are using Damascus barreled doubles?  Most of the ones I've seen are shooting modern-made guns, many of them O/U doubles.

Merry Christmas, Pards

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

11 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

True.  But how many trap shooters are using Damascus barreled doubles?  Most of the ones I've seen are shooting modern-made guns, many of them O/U doubles.

Merry Christmas, Pards

 

My go to Trap Gun is a Winchester Model 12 made in 1948. I regularly put 75 rounds through it almost every Sunday, and during the spring and summer months usually double that. Not Damascus, of course, but it ain't a modern O/U either.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

My go to Trap Gun is a Winchester Model 12 made in 1948. I regularly put 75 rounds through it almost every Sunday, and during the spring and summer months usually double that. Not Damascus, of course, but it ain't a modern O/U either.

 

Far from being a Damascus shotgun...so...

[Ramblin Gambler]

On 12/21/2018 at 6:21 PM, Yul Lose said:

Ol’ Phantom has been up close and personal to automobile accidents and it didn’t scare him one bit, but being he’s in the gun business and won’t be the TO for someone shooting an old shotgun with Damascus barrels, I believe I’d stand back out of the way with him.

 

So you don't think it's that he is being melodramatic?  Cause that's what I think.  I'd like to hear from someone who used a damascus barrel on his posse and find out if he really refused to be on the firing line with them. 

 

 

[Trailrider #896]

Driftwood, et al,

Your M12 Winchesters are still modern guns with fluid steel barrels.  My point was about wear and tear on Old West-type guns, which designs date from the 19th Century.  IIRC, the Model 12 is a hammerless version of the M97, which was an improved version of the M93, which was designed by J.M. Browning, and are in a class by themselves.  The only differences were in improved materials and a few upgrades from BP to smokeless. 

Anyway,

Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year!

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Smokey Dave,

 

I really didn't want to re-read this whole thread again, top to bottom, so if someone else made the point already ...... ooPs.  HOWEVER:

 

Going back to your original post about preferring to have Equipment Correctness, if you go far enough back to the founders of this game, it was originally established as a Fantasy game.  The original criminals, played "Run What Ya Brung."  Rugers, SAA, Hawes, whatever so long as it was single action.  Hot ticket based on availability was the '92 and double guns, then '97s were allowed (Boo Hisssssss) for what ever reason, but eventually the game is Fantasy.

 

Luckily, the game was originally built so we could ALL play at what ever level we want.  So, it gives you the option of not getting too wrapped around the "Correct Equipment."  The thread counters will now display apoplexy and perhaps Swoon, but there it is. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

So you don't think it's that he is being melodramatic?  Cause that's what I think.  I'd like to hear from someone who used a damascus barrel on his posse and find out if he really refused to be on the firing line with them. 

 

 

You can guess all ya want. I say exactly what I mean... Do you??