Shotgun won't open

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

So I fired my new to me Zastava double barrel shotgun and after firing it won't open. Had to break it over my knee to get it to open. I fired it just before we started the match so I haven't been able to troubleshoot it.  Any suggestions as to what to look at / for? It works fine with snap caps.

 

SR

 

[Flash]

Sounds like my shotgun when I use cheap Winchester shot shells! The aluminum in the shells swell and locks the gun up.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

can you post a pic of the primer strike on a spent hull?

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

The most common cause for double to not open is that the firing pins are not retracting.

If the gun is used it could be that there is a slight mushrooming of one or both pins causing them to stick in the primer.

From there you can make a list of things like a broken spring to just poor reassembly.

Don't overlook someone over tightening the screw on the extractor rod.

 

 

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

I didn't save any of the fired shells. The primers looked normal except for a slight drag mark which I assumed could be from the firing pin not retracting.

 

I will check the extracter screw and the firing pins. 

 

Thanks for the suggestions.

SR

[Old Man Graybeard]

I know someone that got a new to them BSS. using AA winchesters...had a hard time opening it. Using Remington STS ...harder primer...no problem. Could be you have a little longer set of firing pins or a hard hammer strike. Using something like an STS with a harder primer may help

 

[Lead Friend, SASS #53635]

Many years ago I sent my Brother in SoCal a cheap Spanish double that I did some cosmetic work to thinking I was doing him a favor. He had the same problem with Winchester shotshells and China Camp suggested using STS instead. It fixed the problem of the gun not opening but it didn’t fix the problem of it being a cheap shotgun, another story altogether.

 

 

 

 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

+ 2 on Flash's possible diagnosis.

I and a number of others have problems using anything but all brass base shells. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

14 hours ago, Flash said:

Sounds like my shotgun when I use cheap Winchester shot shells! The aluminum in the shells swell and locks the gun up.

The heads are not alum. A magnet will prove so.

My bet-FP's are sticking.

OLG

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

I tried both Federal and estates 2 3/4 dram eq. I started taking the shotgun apart and will clean it good. The firing pins are round like they should be and are relatively smooth. They don't appear to protrude too much. The extractor moved OK. 

 

I am trying to remove the stock screw now.  It Is tight. 

 

Thanks for the suggestions. 

 

Silver Rings 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

You have to check the firing pins for protrusion in the FIRED position. (hammers down)

If the gun is out of time the pins will not retract until it starts to open causing the "slight drag marks" you say you saw.

 

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

Well it's clean now. Cleaned out all the old grease.  The extractor didn't move as good as I thought. When the extractor is pushed all the way in it was hard to move it out.  It would slide in fine until it was about  1/8" from being all the way in.  I sanded the guide pin until it would slide in better. Still a bit tight.  See what happens the next time I take it out. 

 

SR

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

4 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

You have to check the firing pins for protrusion in the FIRED position. (hammers down)

If the gun is out of time the pins will not retract until it starts to open causing the "slight drag marks" you say you saw.

 

I fired both sides with the barrels off. The firing pins remain out, the pins are under pressure from the hammers which are internal.

Silver Rings 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

1 hour ago, Silver Rings SASS # 27466 said:

I fired both sides with the barrels off. The firing pins remain out, the pins are under pressure from the hammers which are internal.

Silver Rings 

That is correct. When the barrels are on the cocking lever moves the hammers back. If the hammers do not move back IMMEDIATELY the firing pins are inside the indentation on the primer and will not allow the gun to open. This is why some shells will work well and others won't. It has to do with the thickness of the base and headspaceing.

Solutions -

1  - Shorten firing pins and hope they still set of the primer. (Not recommended)

2 - Increase the head space to compensate. (Not recommended) 

3 - Re-time the cocking mechanism so it cocks the hammer sooner.  Will require competent gunsmith.

 

None of the other solutions that I have seen garage gunsmith attempt  are as bad or worse as # 1 and 2 above.

 

Get it fixed correctly.

 

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

1 hour ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

That is correct. When the barrels are on the cocking lever moves the hammers back. If the hammers do not move back IMMEDIATELY the firing pins are inside the indentation on the primer and will not allow the gun to open. This is why some shells will work well and others won't. It has to do with the thickness of the base and headspaceing.

Solutions -

1  - Shorten firing pins and hope they still set of the primer. (Not recommended)

2 - Increase the head space to compensate. (Not recommended) 

3 - Re-time the cocking mechanism so it cocks the hammer sooner.  Will require competent gunsmith.

 

None of the other solutions that I have seen garage gunsmith attempt  are as bad or worse as # 1 and 2 above.

 

Get it fixed correctly.

 

How do you determine if the firing pins are retracting when the release lever is pressed when the barrels are on? 

 

Silver Rings

[Ace_of_Hearts]

15 minutes ago, Silver Rings SASS # 27466 said:

How do you determine if the firing pins are retracting when the release lever is pressed when the barrels are on? 

 

Silver Rings

You already stated that there were drag marks on the primers after your opened the action.

SO!

They are not retracting soon enough.

 

[Johnny Meadows,SASS#28485L]

Ace of Hearts, you hit this one right on the nose.

Worn cocking levers or over tuned cocking levers.

J.M.

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

That happened to me at my first EOT in 2000 using the Win shotshells.

Another shooter gave me some Remington STS shotshells.....problem solved.

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

OK, here's an update.  I  shimmed the holes the cocking levers fit into and this helped with withdrawing the firing pins. Of course the shims won't stay in place. Took the cocking levers to a welder and he added metal to both levers. Took the shotgun out yesterday and still have to break open the gun over my knee.  Tried each barrel one at a time and the left barrel is working.  Just the right barrel that is still sticking. I will have to go to the welder and have the right levers built up more. 

 

Making progress, I didn't plan on having to do this much internal work, but that life. 

 

The levers and the holes they fit in don't look worn just too much slop in them. Maybe the gun not opening right kept it from being used much and explains why it's in such good shape. 

 

SR

 

[Blast Masterson]

I had a problem with this last year on a SG that I got that was double firing (when it felt like it).

The timing of "everything" was off. Fixing one thing made the other issues worse till all were addressed.

 

As I was just starting CAS and didn't have my shotgun reloading back up and running, I bought some Winchester shells on sale to get me through the set-up process. These shells stuck when the gun was closed. Stuck when it was opened. Had to be resized after firing (if you want to reload them). Resizing would literally shave metal off the shell bases.

After I fixed the gun, these shells still did not work in the sxs. We shot them all up with a pump during pop-up practice.

 

What about the gun fix?;  The cocking levers and springs were not synchronized. Same as your working on now.

This got even worse when I fixed the problem of the gun not fully opening (shells way too close to the receiver).

 

Once they were properly engaging as the gun was opened, I found a delay in firing pin extraction when opened. You asked how to check this. Dry fire (w/o caps) and peek into the chamber as you slightly open the gun. If you still see the firing pins when the bbls are slightly cracked open, they need adjustment. Both pins should extract at the same time or more adjustment required (had to weld like you are doing). 

 

Two things may be happening; for me the shells would expand and not allow the bbls to open because the firing pins are embedded into the primer still (until the shells cooled a few seconds). The Winchester shells were pushing back against the receiver and sticking from heat expansion. When they cooled, they would move back into the chamber a little and allow the gun to forcibly be opened (drag marks on the primer).

 

Your going down the right road, you just don't have the timing right yet. 

Use STX shells to test fire your progress to separate the shell vs. the gun issues.

 

 

[John Boy]

Quote

How do you determine if the firing pins are retracting when the release lever is pressed when the barrels are on? 

Put dummy rounds in the chambers - remove the stock - cock the barrels - pull one trigger at a time and look why the pins are not retracting.  My guess is the pins have weak or broken springs in the receiver channel ... if the gun does not have rebounding hammers.  There could be a burr in the pin holes also

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

Ok I got the cocking lever welded yesterday and got it put back together today and took it out.  Fired both barrels and I could now open it. It takes a bit more effort than I would prefer but it is probably as good as it will get as the barrels don't stay open as far as I would like. Good enough for me to start on the fun part, cutting the barrels down and refinishing the stock.

 

Thanks for all your help.

 

SR

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

21 minutes ago, Silver Rings SASS # 27466 said:

It takes a bit more effort than I would prefer but it is probably as good as it will get as the barrels don't stay open as far as I would like. Good enough for me to start on the fun part, cutting the barrels down

 

Be careful about shortening barrels if you are having problems with the gun not staying open far enough.  This says the gun may need to have the cocking levers reprofiled or the hinge retimed to catch and hold barrels open at full opening instead of springing back.   Cutting barrels shorter takes weight off, and usually increases the problem of the action springing back partially closed..... making loading difficult.

 

I'd say you have a complicated pattern of fitting the cocking levers, hammers and hinge that you don't yet have right.

 

A trip to a good double gunsmith like Johnny Meadows may be the fastest way to get this gun shootable.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Chuck Would, SASS # 53289]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 10:06 PM, Silver Rings SASS # 27466 said:

Had to break it over my knee to get it to open.

 

I saw an RO do that once for a young shooter.  Broke the shotgun in half.  Don't recommend it.

 

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

19 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Be careful about shortening barrels if you are having problems with the gun not staying open far enough.  This says the gun may need to have the cocking levers reprofiled or the hinge retimed to catch and hold barrels open at full opening instead of springing back.   Cutting barrels shorter takes weight off, and usually increases the problem of the action springing back partially closed..... making loading difficult.

 

I'd say you have a complicated pattern of fitting the cocking levers, hammers and hinge that you don't yet have right.

 

A trip to a good double gunsmith like Johnny Meadows may be the fastest way to get this gun shootable.

 

Good luck, GJ

The whole purpose of buying this shotgun was as a project for me to do. I didn't plan on having to work the timing but I enjoy figuring things out and fixing them. Besides my CAS game is about doing things different even if it is much slower, like shooting my shotgun from the hip. So this shotgun won't be fast to use. 

 

Silver Rings