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How much powder?


Henry Moon

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How much American Pioneer Powder is a good cowboy load in a .45 colt & 12g shotgun?

I've searched online & it is very confusing as some people quote grains in volume but I thought grains was a weight unit & CCs was a volume unit.

I normally use 23g of Wano fffg in the .45 Colt & 55g in the shotgun & I'm looking for a similar load with APP.

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Black powder loads are by volume and yes, volume can be measured in grains or cc's.  

 

Do you use a filler in 45 Colt?  If so, 25 grs APP with filler to base of bullet will give you a soft load.  50-60 grs by volume in sg or a 4.3 cc scoop works too.

 

I personally like full case loads in 45 Colt and 65-85 grs in the sg.

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As a starting point use the same volume of APP as if it were  Wano.  I bet you can’t tell the difference.

 

As long as you avoid air space between powder and projectile, and use a lube recommended for your powder, you shouldn’t have problems.

 

Personally I use less powder in my shotshells,  but if you are happy that is the important thing.

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Black powder loads are by volume and yes, volume can be measured in grains or cc's.  

 

Do you use a filler in 45 Colt?  If so, 25 grs APP with filler to base of bullet will give you a soft load.  50-60 grs by volume in sg or a 4.3 cc scoop works too.

 

I personally like full case loads in 45 Colt and 65-85 grs in the sg.

I still don't understand this whole volume & grains thing. It's like saying a bag of feathers will weigh the same as a bag of cement. :mellow:

I normally use a 10mm compressed cotton wad over the powder which compresses to about 5mm then a squirt of Lanolin grease before the coated projectile. 

When you use a full case would that be about 2.2CCs of APP?

APP isn't available in Australia but a very generous shooter has offered to load for me when I come over to EOT next year.

 

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You are overthinking this.  Blackpowder and substitutes are loaded by VOLUME.  Please read my post again.  If you use the same volume of APP instead of Wano, you will be safe and ok.

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Sounds like it's time to refer you to one of the best references on black, substitutes and grains-volume:

 

http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

 

Good luck, GJ

 

But to clear up your "bag of cement", how about this mostly true history.

 

Black powder has been made consistently to the same density for three hundred or so years.  It was easier in the 1700s and 1800s to measure a volume rather than a weight.   (That's the reason that farm grains and other crops were bought and sold in bushels rather than tons).   Someone had to figure out a volume that would hold a grain (weight) of black powder, so his fellow shooters could consistently measure out a standard amount of black powder for their muskets.   The druggist could measure weight of BP in grains with his balance scale (but no one wanted to carry that hunting or to the next battleground).  So they recruited a tinsmith who could make a measure out of a brass cylinder that could be marked with the weight of BP that was in the measure up to each graduation line.   So the metal smiths made powder measures that would measure the VOLUME of BP which would WEIGH, say, 70 grains.  Folks who were persnickety would say, "You're not measuring weight in that powder measure, you're measuring volume!"  So, the unit of measure of "grains by volume" was applied to the amount of "standard density BP" that would fit in the measure.  If your pard sold you a flintlock that needed 50 grains by volume of BP, now you could measure that pretty darned precisely with your shiny new brass powder measure.

 

This worked really well until about 1970, when some boys started trying to IMPROVE black powder.   The substitutes that they made didn't really have the standard density of BP.   So that is when the "grains by volume" got a little complicated.  Now you will see the same power of load calling for maybe 

50 grains volume Black Powder, or

45 grains volume Pyrodex, or

40 grains volume 777, or

57 grains volume APP.   (all these numbers are made up, by the way)

 

All this really means is, when you see someone quote a load you want to copy "by volume of BP" equivalent, you whip out your trusty BP measure, and measure the VOLUME of the substitute that your load calls for.    Thus, we still can avoid WEIGHING black powder or it's substitute powders, if we want to.   But be careful checking the data that folks print or tell you.   You need to know if they are talking grains-weight or grains-volume!  If they tell you a true weight number, then it's time to pour it on a powder scale, and if you want to, pour that WEIGHT into the powder measure and you can see what the VOLUME of that WEIGHT is, for yourself.

 

If that doesn't cut your mustard, then check the article quoted above.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the explanation Garrison Joe, it makes a bit more sense now.

So would 35 grains by volume (2.2CCs) of APP without any filler be a good cowboy load in a .45 colt with a 200gr projectile and  54 grains by volume (3.4CCs)  in the shotgun with a Winchester WAA12 wad & 1oz of shot?

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51 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

You are overthinking this.  Blackpowder and substitutes are loaded by VOLUME.  Please read my post again.  If you use the same volume of APP instead of Wano, you will be safe and ok.

Someone else is loading the APP for me & I'm trying to not use any filler in the .45 Colt.

Hopefully there won't be too much recoil.

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2 minutes ago, Henry Moon said:

Someone else is loading the APP for me & I'm trying to not use any filler in the .45 Colt.

Hopefully there won't be too much recoil.

 

I doubt you will notice any difference in recoil if APP is used in equal volume to the Wano.  Rest easy.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Henry Moon said:

would 35 grains by volume (2.2CCs) of APP without any filler be a good cowboy load in a .45 colt with a 200gr projectile

That would be a little strong for some shooters.  IMHO, it's not going to be dangerous.   If you have decided not to use a filler, then fill to bottom of the bullet and seat the slug.

 

S/G loads have to be adjusted to match the wad and shot load you want to use.   IF the load you mentioned above gives you a proper powder-wad-shot column height, it will be pleasant to shoot and probably not blow a hole through the center of the pattern.  If you have not shot this load at home, your loader volunteer should test this on paper at 10 yards to verify a dense pattern, or you can have disappointing results at a major match like EOT!

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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6 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

I doubt you will notice any difference in recoil if APP is used in equal volume to the Wano.  Rest easy.

 

 

He will need to use more powder to fill the air gap where the wad used to be though, won't he?

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25 minutes ago, Henry Moon said:

He will need to use more powder to fill the air gap where the wad used to be though, won't he?

 

Maybe.  I don’t know how much compression occurs with use of the wad.  If there is no significant air gap between the bullet and powder without the wad in there you should be fine.  Managing compression is very important in long range accuracy (hundreds of yards), not quite so much when the target is 5 to 10 yards away.  If the base of the bullet kisses the powder without compression, you should be good to go.

 

edit:

 

For example, I load the same volume of powder into both .38 Special and .357 Magnum brass— 1.0 cc Lee Dipper— under a Big Lube 125 grain bullet, with no wad or filler.  There is virtually no compression of the powder inside the .357 cases, and not much inside the .38s.   In 20 years I have never had a problem.

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A full 2.2 cc of APP under a 200 gr RNFP   Don’t tap it to settle it. Don’t strike it off to level it.  Dip it and pour it in. Repeat as needed. As far as shotgun I reload Gunclubs. 4.3 cc with  1 1/8 oz shot and red wad . 4.0 cc with 1 oz shot and white wad. Height of the wad determines the amount of powder and shot. 

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Howdy

 

Garrison Joe: An excellent distillation of what I have been trying to say for years.

 

Two minor points to consider:

 

" Black powder has been made consistently to the same density for three hundred or so years.  It was easier in the 1700s and 1800s to measure a volume rather than a weight. "

 

The actual weight and density of Black Powder has varied slightly over the years.

 

I have an old explosives textbook called The Chemistry of Powder and Explosives by Tenney L. Davis, published in 1943.

 

Tenney has a table listing the proportions of the ingredients by percentage of Black Powder and other flammable or explosive mixtures used over the centuries.

 

I have reproduced the table here.

                                                                              Saltpeter        Charcoal        Sulfur

8th Century, Marcus Graecus..............................66.66....................22.22...................11.11

8th Century, Marcus Graecus..............................69.22.....................23.07..................7.69

C. 1252, Roger Bacon..................................................37.50....................31.25....................31.25

1350, Arderne (laboratory recipe).......................66.6......................22.2.......................11.1

1560, Whitehorn............................................................50.0......................33.3.......................16.6

1560,Bruxelles studies................................................75.0......................15.62......................9.38

1635, British Government Contract...................75.0......................12.5.........................12.5

1781, Bishop Watson....................................................75.0.......................15.0........................10.0

 

The first two formulas, dating from the 8th Century were not for Black Powder as we know it. They were for some other flammable mixture, possibly Greek Fire.

 

Roger Bacon was an English Monk who documented much of the early work with explosives. He writes about firecrackers, the size of a man's thumb, not much different than we have today. So his formula would probably not have been useful in firearms, but was useful in small explosives and rockets.

 

Jump forward to the 1560 Bruxelles study. This is the first time we see proportions of the three elements of Black Powder very similar to modern proportion. Tenney mentions this fact and states how closely this formula matches the formula used today for sporting and military purposes.

 

The 1781 formula is the exact same formula that the US Army settled on sometime in the mid 1800s. Sorry, I don't remember exactly when. My Dad, who was an explosives chemist working for Hercules Powder Company during WWII, told me the same formula. He knew I would be experimenting trying to make my own Black Powder, so he saved me the trouble of looking up the formula. In fact, I may have gotten the Tenney book from him. Tenney also mentions that improvements in Black Powder over the years have also been influenced by the methods of manufacture.

 

 

My second point is not all Black Powder produced today weighs the same.

 

I put together this chart a number of years ago, base on my own experience weighing and loading various brands and granulations of Black Powder that I have used over the years. My reference was the dipper sizes that come in the Lee dipper set, hence the use of the Cubic Centimeter reference. Today, Cubic Centimeters have been replaced by milliliters. They are the same.

 

BlackPowderWeights_zps5bea048d.jpg

 

 

 

 

I always load my Black Powder cartridges by volume, as does almost everybody else. I have my Lyman Black Powder measure calibrated to deliver the volumes in my chart. Mostly these days I only use Schuetzen FFg. The chart is just for reference.

 

I have read that some of the top competitors in Black Powder Cartridge Rifle events actually weight their charges, not depending on volume for the accuracy they need. They will also recalibrate their loads when they start using a new lot of any particular powder.

 

So, I just wanted to say that there have been slight differences in the actual weight or densities of commercial Black Power over the years.

 

However, it has not been enough to make using a tool like this obsolete for general purpose Black Powder loading.

 

measure-1.jpg

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3 hours ago, Trooper Ozzy said:

A full 2.2 cc of APP under a 200 gr RNFP   Don’t tap it to settle it. Don’t strike it off to level it.  Dip it and pour it in. Repeat as needed. As far as shotgun I reload Gunclubs. 4.3 cc with  1 1/8 oz shot and red wad . 4.0 cc with 1 oz shot and white wad. Height of the wad determines the amount of powder and shot. 

 

Howdy Again

 

I ALWAYS level off the dipper charge if I am using a dipper to portion out Black Powder. If you don't level it off, you are not dipping the exact powder charge indicated on the dipper. My technique is to dredge the dipper through a coffee mug half filled with powder just like scooping ice cream. This leaves the powder piled up on top of the dipper. Then I level the charge by scraping it off with a piece of card. The excess falls back into the coffee mug.

 

A minor point to be sure, but as with measuring out powder by any method, consistency is the most important thing. I try to scoop with the same motion for every dipper full, then scrape off the excess before pouring it into the cases.

 

When I operate the rotor on my Lyman Black Powder measure I try to be consistent every time I flip the rotor.

 

Again, a very minor point, one or two grains of Black Powder probably does not make much difference, but I at least try to be consistent.

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Volume changes especially with APP. All those different size granules allow a lot of airspace that's not filled in with solid powder. Bottom of the bottle you are dipping "more" actual powder than at the top of the bottle...settling occurred smaller grains and powder at the bottom. The compression when seating helps out to solidify the charge.   Note the grain equivalents difference on charts between 2f, 3f, 4f taking this into account. YMMV but not a critical item with black or APP like if you were charging smokeless Titegroup IMHO. Fill it up, seat the bullet, and have some fun. 

 

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On ‎12‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 10:52 AM, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

Henry..Wash 'ya mouth out with soap I say .....just use the real thing & be done with those other pretend powders !!!!!!!!!!!!1

 

A very kind gentleman has offered to load enough ammo for Deadly & I to shoot 4 big matches while in the USA so I'm not complaining.

And besides that, I thought I'd give this APP a try as it's not available here in Australia.

 

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Henry, stop worrying about your loads here, the friend who's loading your stuff knows what he's doing, just let him do it, cause they will be fine.:D

APP is great similar to Pyrodex but much easier to clean.

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