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Ledge Lady, SASS #61439

Moving with cocked pistol

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A few years ago I shot at a monthly match where they had a stage that allowed shooting the pistols on the move. My question to match directors and powers to be is can a match director exclude the moving with a cocked firearm penalty at a monthly match. I thought this was something different and enjoyed it. Not looking to start a debate or trying to turn sass into another shooting discipline. Just want a simple yes or no.

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You can move with pistols out, but they can't be cocked. Us gunfighters do it all the time when there are split pistol stages. But not cocked pistols

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3 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

You can move with pistols out, but they can't be cocked. Us gunfighters do it all the time when there are split pistol stages. But not cocked pistols

Interesting, did not know this. I always wait till I have a foot planted before drawing a pistol after moving and holster before moving after firing. So either can actually be done on the move.

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Match Directors can do or allow ANYTHING that they want at their match, and I've seen it first hand at the highest levels.  If it is a SASS affiliated club they are suppose to follow all of the SASS rules, but that does not always happen. As a MD, I am guilty of bending some rules after careful consideration of a situation. The MD must and does have the power to look at a situation and make the final call. In your situation, I'm surprised that it was allowed. In the past it use to be that declaring a very large shooting box would circumvent the rule about shooting on the move, but since the "Basket Ball" rule was added, that is no longer possible. Shooting while on the move was one of the things that attracted some folks to the W3G shooting venue.... but, it is NOT suppose to be allowed at a SASS club, and I doubt you would see it happen at a SASS sanctioned match.

 

Snakebite 

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37 minutes ago, Ranger Dan said:

So either can actually be done on the move.

 

Yep, as long as your muzzle stays within  the 170 downrange.

Don't cock until at least one foot plants.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

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Shooting the pistols on the move is VASTLY different than moving with a cocked firearm.

 

Plant foot, cock, fire is ok.

Cock, move, fire is not.

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never ever ever decrease listed safety rules,,,,  why not?  who would own the range if something happened doing so?

 

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Returning to the OPs question .......

 

PLUS ONE to Smokestack.

 

While additional comments may have been correct, they are superfluous.

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Moving with any cocked gun is an accident waiting to happen.   We play with REAL guns and shoot REAL bullets any accidental shot fired can get someone REAL dead.  Keep all safety rules and enforce them to the letter.

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Hi Lady,

 

IIRC, many moons ago, someone (PWB was that you?) posted that the SASS Conventions relating to safety should not be overruled by scenario writers. It is a good practice as several posters on this thread have explained.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

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10 minutes ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

Moving with any cocked gun is an accident waiting to happen.   

Moving and shooting on the move IS NOT an accident waiting to happen.  It does take technique/practice and is employed effectively at many other shooting discipline's matches safely.  It was somewhat common at SASS matches in the old days with no issues.  Somewhere along the way, the safety police decided it was no longer a safe activity. 

 

Smokestack has the correct answer for the OP.

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22 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

Returning to the OPs question .......

 

PLUS ONE to Smokestack.

 

While additional comments may have been correct, they are superfluous.

Superfluous? How long have you been saving that one in your back pocket and waiting for the perfect moment to use it?

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15 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Moving and shooting on the move IS NOT an accident waiting to happen.  It does take technique/practice and is employed effectively at many other shooting discipline's matches safely.  It was somewhat common at SASS matches in the old days with no issues.  Somewhere along the way, the safety police decided it was no longer a safe activity. 

 

Smokestack has the correct answer for the OP.

Agreed! After many years of shooting while moving I actually have to keep reminding myself not to do it in SASS.

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1 hour ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

Moving with any cocked gun is an accident waiting to happen.   We play with REAL guns and shoot REAL bullets any accidental shot fired can get someone REAL dead.  Keep all safety rules and enforce them to the letter.

Yep like all those that are dying in all the other Real shooting sports that allow movement with cocked guns

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I have been shooting SASS for 19 years and I don't remember ever being able to move with a cocked gun.  Yes, in other shooting events you are allowed to move and shoot while moving.   In SASS we have shooters ranging in age of 12 to 85ish years, some of the shooters because of physical limitations can barely shoot a stage....do you really want some of the physically challenged shooters moving with a cocked gun?   

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1 hour ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

Moving with any cocked gun is an accident waiting to happen.   We play with REAL guns and shoot REAL bullets any accidental shot fired can get someone REAL dead.  Keep all safety rules and enforce them to the letter.

So wrong on so many levels here.

You really need to attend some modern pistol and 3 gun matches.

Also-look into W3G events.

OLG

 

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45 minutes ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

I have been shooting SASS for 19 years and I don't remember ever being able to move with a cocked gun.  Yes, in other shooting events you are allowed to move and shoot while moving.   In SASS we have shooters ranging in age of 12 to 85ish years, some of the shooters because of physical limitations can barely shoot a stage....do you really want some of the physically challenged shooters moving with a cocked gun?   

Mid to later 90's at Chorro Valley.

 

The short answer is yes because even back in the day, there were options for folks with infirmities to navigate the stage safely. 

 

Age is of little consequence as all shooting sports address a wide age spectrum without issues. 

 

If you consider most shooting accidents, it is generally during the draw and holster portion of the run.

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As it stands now,  Smokestack nailed it.  You "could" suspend that rule but it would be a massive departure from the SASS rulebook.

 

My current opinion is that we still desperately need the rules altered to where stage writers can specify a shooting position being any size (eg: from here to there or between this and that prop) and not worry about condition of the hammer or feet within that position.   This should at the very least apply to the shotgun because it's so simple to implement on stage design.  Ultimately, it should be allowed for any gun but that's an even bigger can of worms.

 

More "bad things" happen because shooting positions that are far apart frequently have NOTHING you can do between them but run as fast as you can.  A controlled engagement of targets along the way between spread out positions, makes wider stages MORE manageable to everyone including older shooters and those who can't run as fast and in my opinion is much less frantic and safer for the shooter and everyone around them.  It's more fun too as stage writing options really expand.  Just let the stage writer define when it's allowed and where.  It fits with our game very well and it does not turn it into W3G because the engagement zones are clearly defined.  Hammer down EXCEPT within defined shooting positions... however large the stage writer makes them.  May be just one table in front of you or it may be 20 feet from table to table.  Could also be defined anywhere between a set of props.

 

 

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Also, in the other shooting sports you aren't required to shoot on the move. If a shooter is not comfortable shooting while moving, they can get to a spot, shoot, then move to the next position and shoot. Because they aren't using single action revolvers you do have to move with a cocked gun. We had a 90 year old shooter who finally stopped participating. The average age is younger then SASS but there are still plenty in their 60's and 70's.

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SASS is not a "Three gun match."  I have seen too many people shot on purpose, accidentally or what ever...bottom line, SAFETY is the priority option here.   Moving with a cocked gun in SASS is a accident waiting to happen.   If you don't want to comply with this rule, by all means go to 3 gun and have fun.  

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8 minutes ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

SASS is not a "Three gun match."  I have seen too many people shot on purpose, accidentally or what ever...bottom line, SAFETY is the priority option here.   Moving with a cocked gun in SASS is a accident waiting to happen.   If you don't want to comply with this rule, by all means go to 3 gun and have fun.  

Yup:huh:-Don't ever let facts interfere with an emotional rant, filled with inaccuracies. :rolleyes:

Carry on,

OLG

 

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4 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Yup:huh:-Don't ever let facts interfere with an emotional rant, filled with inaccuracies. :rolleyes:

Carry on,

OLG

 

At least he is passionate in his viewpoint.  Wrong but passionate.:wacko:

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19 hours ago, Ledge Lady, SASS #61439 said:

A few years ago I shot at a monthly match where they had a stage that allowed shooting the pistols on the move. My question to match directors and powers to be is can a match director exclude the moving with a cocked firearm penalty at a monthly match. I thought this was something different and enjoyed it. Not looking to start a debate or trying to turn sass into another shooting discipline. Just want a simple yes or no.

Are you sure they allowed moving with a cocked firearm? We’re allowed to move with long guns why would moving with pistols be any different? As long as we don’t move with them cocked, where’s the safety issue?

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Allie, I found this a few days ago...you may recall it from the 2006 California State Championship, Shootout at Durham Ferry.

 

The train depot stage consisted of a caboose on the left end (windows 1-2-3), a passenger car in the middle (windows 4-5-6-7-8) and an engine on the right end (position 9 with 2 windows).

 

Instructions:  Rifle and shotgun staged at position 9, handguns holstered, you are standing near position 1 with a satchel.  On signal, take satchel to position 1 and put it on crate.  First pistol, double-tap P1 through window 1, single-tap P2 through window 2, double-tap P3 through window 3.  Second pistol, engage P4 once through each window as you are moving left to right.  Move to position 9.  Rifle, alternate between R1 and R2 starting with R1 and alternate between windows starting with left window.  Secure rifle. Shotgun, knock down S1-S2 through left window.  Knock down S3-S4 through right window.  NOTE:  THERE IS NO PENALTY FOR HITTING PROPS.  NO PENALTY FOR MOVING WITH COCKED PISTOL AT THESE FIRING POSITIONS.

 

Somehow, we managed not to hurt anyone...

 

:D

 

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15 hours ago, Attica Jack #23953 said:

SASS is not a "Three gun match."  I have seen too many people shot on purpose, accidentally or what ever...bottom line, SAFETY is the priority option here.   Moving with a cocked gun in SASS is a accident waiting to happen.   If you don't want to comply with this rule, by all means go to 3 gun and have fun.  

 

 

You're certainly welcome to your opinion and I'm definitely not going to say you're wrong BUT, I'm curious to know how you came to that opinion.  As has been pointed out and based on my years of experience in the 1911 world what you're describing simply isn't true.  Can you please give a reason why you think this scenario is so dangerous?  

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Just one more comment on shooting while on the move. It is done in most action shooting sports/games. It is not without risk, and IMO is something that should be undertaken by shooters with a good deal of experience under their belt. We have many highly experienced shooters in this game, but we also have more untrained/unexperienced people playing this game than any other shooting sport that I know of. Just take a look around your own local club and I'm sure that you will find folks that have very little if any training on firearms and even fewer that have had any professional training. We get many spouses that have come to the game who have never even fired a gun before.  We also have a goodly number of shooters that THINK that they are very savy and safe because they "Grew up with guns". It is that latter group that has given me more angst than the newbie. The newbie usually listens and learns, the others already know it all and don't want to be told what to do. We also have A HUGE number of Oldsters in this game, and being of that group I know that stability and fleet of feet is something that diminishes as we age. Moving and shooting is fun, and can be done safely... it is not done however without risk of tripping etc, and IMO it should remain in the realm of the more experienced shooters and those that have no mobility issues. THAT dominion is NOT CAS. This is a good rule that has helped to avoid unnecessary risk in our game. 

 

Snakebite 

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21 minutes ago, Snakebite said:

Just one more comment on shooting while on the move. It is done in most action shooting sports/games. It is not without risk, and IMO is something that should be undertaken by shooters with a good deal of experience under their belt. We have many highly experienced shooters in this game, but we also have more untrained/unexperienced people playing this game than any other shooting sport that I know of. Just take a look around your own local club and I'm sure that you will find folks that have very little if any training on firearms and even fewer that have had any professional training. We get many spouses that have come to the game who have never even fired a gun before.  We also have a goodly number of shooters that THINK that they are very savy and safe because they "Grew up with guns". It is that latter group that has given me more angst than the newbie. The newbie usually listens and learns, the others already know it all and don't want to be told what to do. We also have A HUGE number of Oldsters in this game, and being of that group I know that stability and fleet of feet is something that diminishes as we age. Moving and shooting is fun, and can be done safely... it is not done however without risk of tripping etc, and IMO it should remain in the realm of the more experienced shooters and those that have no mobility issues. THAT dominion is NOT CAS. This is a good rule that has helped to avoid unnecessary risk in our game. 

 

Snakebite 

I agree, Snakebite. One of the GREAT things about this game is anybody can come do it. One of the bad things about this game is anybody can come do it. I've had people show up to shoot the National and World championships on my posse who have never fired a shot in a match. Ever. Not a monthly. Not a warm up. Nothing. One in particular used that line, "Well, I've been shooting all my life!" In three stages, he earned two SDQs.

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As with so many things, the abilities and experience of the individual participants is ultimately what determines the risk associated with any activity.  I have seen new shooters who were extremely nervous, but ultra careful, and I have also seen experienced shooters who have become over-confident and had negligent discharges.  SASS rules, about moving with a cocked gun are a mechanism for making sure to minimize the risk of someone getting hurt for the vast majority of the shooters.  While there is certainly a group of shooters who could safely handle moving with a cocked gun, there are also those who should not do so.

 

I am reminded of the days when there was a requirement for those who wanted to shoot Gunfighter to be certified to do so.  I think there was at one time even an "Official" Gunfighter card or something, but that was in the early '00s and when shooting Gunfighter was a far away dream.  (Been doing it for about 8 years now and some still say I'm dreaming! :P)  Now that there are enough of us, who have proven ourselves to be safe, it's not a big deal.

 

If SASS were ever to allow movement with a cocked gun, it would likely have to be implemented the same way.  Start with a select group of folks who were "certified" as safe to do so and expand the group as needed.  Maybe that's another argument for the "Open Category" that has been discussed in the past for various reasons.  Any Style, Any Time, Any Where, and On The Move!

 

Personally, I am good with the rules we have in place.  I will take a little extra safety over a little extra speed any day.

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Shooting Bull, asked why I thought moving with a cocked gun is dangerous.   OK, just a simple example.  You have a person shooting the stage, that has some limited movement abilities.  This person shoots one revolver, cocks the other one and moves to the next pistol station, while moving he/she slips on some thing, water, ice, empty shells, etc.   When the slip happens, the shooting hand hits the ground or board walk, it breaks the 170 rule and the shooters finger is in on the trigger and the pistol goes off.....accidental discharge aimed at everyone behind the line.   I just don't think it is safe  PERIOD.    If you shoot Wild Bunch, you will see plenty of unsafe gun handling, moving with slide forward, moving with trigger finger on trigger etc.   All of these will earn a penalty.  I know a 1911 is a different gun, and lot of things going on when shooting.  Lets keep our sport as safe as it can be.  Also, I talked to several shooters that have been shooting as long as I have, and not one can ever remember when it was ok to move with a cocked hand gun.

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In the other action shooting sports you are allowed to have your finger on the trigger only when actively engaging targets. Reloading, clearing malfunctions and moving while not engaging targets, with finger on the trigger, earns the shooter a match dq.

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One of the biggest problems I encountered in updating the WBAS rules over the years was deleting penalties for things some perceived as "dangerous". However they are just personal perceptions or prejudices. It is either a true safety issue or it isn't. Attica Jack and I will just have to agree to disagree.   His statement about actually seeing multiple people shot  by accident I take with a grain of salt.  We are all allowed our opinions but that doesn't make them facts.

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Rule #1 in gun handle'n---

Keep you 'booger-picker' OFF the 'pedal', till you are on target. ;)

All else is secondary.........-_-

OLG

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