LEO question: WHY?

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Youtube allows us to view a lot of actual moving traffic stops, etc.....

 

I have seen a few where 2 officers are involved in the stop..... One LEO walks up on the drivers side, the other

officer walks up on the other side, slightly to the rear.

 

I've noticed the officer on the passenger side of the car usually has his/her hand on their pistol.

QUESTION:  why doesn't that officer carry their shotgun instead of the pistol, just in case its needed?

 

..........Widder

 

[Pat Riot]

Perhaps they don’t want to be too intimidating. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

That thought crossed my mind Pat.

 

But these 'servants of the community' are getting ambushed, shot at, etc....

 

And I, for one, have reached the conclusion that they owe nobody an apology just for trying to insure

they stay safe, and should they encounter a life or  death situation, they are more than ready

to put a quick, decisive end to those situations.

 

Yes, I know the pistol is formidable and I may be misunderstanding these situations, but I am

curious to know why some of them wouldn't want (or not allowed) to have a good shotgun

at the ready.

 

..........Widder

 

[Alpo]

I do a California stop, and the blue lights come on.

 

As the one cop is explaining that STOP MEANS STOP, his partner is on the other side of my car with a shotgun pointed at me??!?!!??

 

And you think that's a good idea?

[Widder, SASS #59054]

11 hours ago, Alpo said:

I do a California stop, and the blue lights come on.

 

As the one cop is explaining that STOP MEANS STOP, his partner is on the other side of my car with a shotgun pointed at me??!?!!??

 

And you think that's a good idea?

 

Alpo,

That same partner would also have a pistol pointed in your direction.

 

From the angles I have seen on the video's,  the 'helping' officer is positioning him/herself

slightly to the rear, close to the back window area.

 

But, If your answer is the reason, then atleast I now know.   But, if a perp tries to draw down on you,

which would you be safer:

1.  the perp shooting at you with a pistol

2. a partner shooting at the perp with a SG.

 

..........Widder

 

[Sedalia Dave]

43 minutes ago, Alpo said:

I do a California stop, and the blue lights come on.

 

As the one cop is explaining that STOP MEANS STOP, his partner is on the other side of my car with a shotgun pointed at me??!?!!??

 

And you think that's a good idea?

 

Its a difficult line to draw. Are you non-threatening Alpo OR are you willing to commit murder to avoid arrest?

 

Nation wide in 2017 6 offices were killed during traffic enforcement. (I couldn't find a definition of that term.) Couldn't find data on non-fatal traffic stops.

 

There is this to ponder. Fortunately in this instance the officer survived.

 

[Alpo]

I understand that cops have a dangerous job, and I understand that sometimes bad guys kill cops.

 

But the solution is not for cops to draw down on everyone they stop.

 

When that happens we have a police state.

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

A shotgun with 00, would have a good chance of deflecting at least one pellet and hitting partner or going off a ways and hitting other traffic?

[Carolina Gunslinger]

3 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Alpo,

That same partner would also have a pistol pointed in your direction.

 

From the angles I have seen on the video's,  the 'helping' officer is positioning him/herself

slightly to the rear, close to the back window area.

 

But, If your answer is the reason, then atleast I now know.   But, if a pert tries to draw down on you,

which would you be safer:

1.  the pert shooting at you with a pistol

2. a partner shooting at the pert with a SG.

 

..........Widder

 

Three things:

Alpo is the driver of the car, not one of the cops in the scenario.

 

A California stop is slowly rolling through a stop sign. 

 

It's perp, which is short for perpetrator. Pert is/was a shampoo.

[Jackson Rose, SASS #45478]

10 hours ago, Alpo said:

I understand that cops have a dangerous job, and I understand that sometimes bad guys kill cops.

 

But the solution is not for cops to draw down on everyone they stop.

 

When that happens we have a police state.

What he said. My department had all one person cruisers. On a stop you did not go straight to the driver's door. Pause at the rear of the car to observe the driver's actions, look in the back seat and, and look for the driver's hands. If you need to escalate you can return to your car for a bigger gun and wait for a back up. If stopping a suspect vehicle you wait for a good spot and a backup car, or 2, and don't approach the car. A felony stop has the suspects exit the car.

All stops are not the same, night time and daytime are different, Interstate stops are approached differently from city street stops. Rural stops are way different, ask Utah about those.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

8 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Three things:

Alpo is the driver of the car, not one of the cops in the scenario.

 

A California stop is slowly rolling through a stop sign. 

 

It's perp, which is short for perpetrator. Pert is/was a shampoo.

 

Gunslinger,  thanks for the correct spelling.   I went back to my post and corrected my misspelling.

Thanks.

 

..........Widder

 

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

While researching an answer to Widders' question in his OP, (which I could not find), I did run across some scary moments for officers during traffic stops.

This one is especially harrowing.  

 

 

[Carolina Gunslinger]

7 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

Gunslinger,  thanks for the correct spelling.   I went back to my post and corrected my misspelling.

Thanks.

 

..........Widder

 

You're welcome. I was only trying to correct the confusion. It had me going for a bit as to who was doing what and Californian stoppages. Not trying to step on our resident good guy.

[Smoken D]

Times are also different. Many years ago when you would stop a car load in the intercity and no back up available due to high volume of calls, you would get everyone out of the car first and have them sit down a few feet apart. You would also tell them that if anyone moved you would kill them and it didn't matter which one got it first. Hopefully by then some backup would show up. Back then more cops were killed in the line of duty than our modern day. I thankfully never had anyone move on me back then. In one area we always had party armed calls come out on Saturday nights. Those calls were usually made to show how we would respond. Due to that certain area we would send 3 officers. Two would walk forward hand guns drawn with the officer on the right looking forward, one on the left looking up. I was to the rear with the officer that was to the left holding onto my rear portion of my belt with his non-gun hand as I faced rearward walking backwards shotgun in my hands loaded and ready to fire. Usually in the summertime with lots of punks hanging around that sidewalk as we came by. Times were different.

[Chantry]

Not a LEO, however the second officer is probably just being cautious and pro-active or maybe something made one or both officers think that it might be more than a regular traffic stop, but there wasn't enough to turn it into a felony stop or call for more backup.

 

As an aside and maybe this is a regional thing, but I don't see shotguns (or any other long guns) locked to the dashboard of the patrol car much anymore in the Northeast.  Perhaps the long gun (shotgun or patrol rifle) is being locked in the trunk* or perhaps the average patrol car no longer has a long gun in it.  I've heard some departments will issue M-16/AR-15 type rifles just to supervisors or select officers.

 

*With the news stories of LEO vehicles (marked or not) being broken into and guns stolen, I suspect most departments that still use long guns have moved them into the trunk.

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

The second officer may have his handgun or shotgun in hand, ready to go, but not necessarily safety off, finger on trigger pointed at your head. 

[Hashknife Cowboy]

In all my years in LE I never understood the hand on the pistol posture.  Either get it out at the low ready, have it out and concealed behind your thigh  or have it holstered.   In a close quarter  situation I actually preferred a handgun over a long gun of any kind.  It comes down to training and what is your skill set with the handgun.  But not all LEO's take the time to become highly proficient with their handgun, a sad reality.  There is a place for the shotgun and long gun, but they are awkward to carry.  Traffic stops are dangerous, but using the right tactics and approach you can lessen  the threat to yourself.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

SG takes 2 hands and hard to hold a flash light to sweep the inside of the car without pointing the muzzle at folks unnecessarily..

At the distance involved, the DS officer would be in the line of fire.

Unnecessary show of force.............

OLG

 

[Red Cent]

"But the solution is not for cops to draw down on everyone they stop."

 

I wouldn't describe hand on gun in holster as "drawn down on". And if it puts the officer at an advantage, hell yes.

 

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

3 hours ago, Chantry said:

Not a LEO, however the second officer is probably just being cautious and pro-active or maybe something made one or both officers think that it might be more than a regular traffic stop, but there wasn't enough to turn it into a felony stop or call for more backup.

 

As an aside and maybe this is a regional thing, but I don't see shotguns (or any other long guns) locked to the dashboard of the patrol car much anymore in the Northeast.  Perhaps the long gun (shotgun or patrol rifle) is being locked in the trunk* or perhaps the average patrol car no longer has a long gun in it.  I've heard some departments will issue M-16/AR-15 type rifles just to supervisors or select officers.

 

*With the news stories of LEO vehicles (marked or not) being broken into and guns stolen, I suspect most departments that still use long guns have moved them into the trunk.

Ours was in the 'cab' next to the driver.

They had locks that you would destroy the gun trying to get it out.

My LEO, SIL has his M4 in the truck and the shotgun is next to him.

Many LEO long guns these days have 'chips' that can be used to locate stolen guns.

OLG

 

[Smoken D]

4 hours ago, Chantry said:

Not a LEO, however the second officer is probably just being cautious and pro-active or maybe something made one or both officers think that it might be more than a regular traffic stop, but there wasn't enough to turn it into a felony stop or call for more backup.

 

As an aside and maybe this is a regional thing, but I don't see shotguns (or any other long guns) locked to the dashboard of the patrol car much anymore in the Northeast.  Perhaps the long gun (shotgun or patrol rifle) is being locked in the trunk* or perhaps the average patrol car no longer has a long gun in it.  I've heard some departments will issue M-16/AR-15 type rifles just to supervisors or select officers.

 

*With the news stories of LEO vehicles (marked or not) being broken into and guns stolen, I suspect most departments that still use long guns have moved them into the trunk.

 

The second officer gets a view inside the vehicle from the opposite side and hopefully can see the drivers right arm/hand and keep an eye on passengers which the first officer is concentrating on the driver.

Some shotguns are locked along the front of the drivers seat and can be drawn out from the drivers side. Thus you cannot see them. The AR's are kept in the trunk locked up. Or so it use to be.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Sir Robert Peel, founder of the London Metropolitan Police and considered to be the father of modern policing wrothe these proinciples down in 1829. They remain valid todaty, just like our Constitution. Note numbers 4 and 6 and you may understand why approaching every citizen you stop with a draw handgun or shotgun is not the best policy.

Sir Robert Peel's Nine Principles of Policing

PRINCIPLE 1 “The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.”

PRINCIPLE 2 “The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.”

PRINCIPLE 3 “Police must secure the willing cooperation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.”

PRINCIPLE 4 “The degree of cooperation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.”

PRINCIPLE 5 “Police seek and preserve public favor not by catering to the public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.”

PRINCIPLE 6 “Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.”

PRINCIPLE 7 “Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.”

PRINCIPLE 8 “Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.”

PRINCIPLE 9 “The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.”

[Sarge]

The role of the passenger side officer is to back up the drivers side officer.  The PS will position themselves depending on the number and location of the occupants of the vehicle.  Usually they will try to get into place before the DS officer arrives giving them an opportunity to get a look at the glove box and any other areas a weapon can be secreted.  Why not walk up with a long gun?  A number of reasons.  Top most on my list is a long gun becomes a real liability in a physical non-deadly force situation.  It potentially gives the bad guy something to go for in a fight.  Now you not only have to try to control the bad guy, but you also have to control the long gun.  Why turn a use of force situation into an unnecessary deadly force situation?  Another factor is can you imagine you, elderly law abiding citizen and your wife driving home from dinner and being stopped by two officers who approach your car with a shotgun?  Would create a whole lot more police community relations issues.  

[Alpo]

3 hours ago, Red Cent said:

I wouldn't describe hand on gun in holster as "drawn down on"

The original suggestion - and the one I was talking about - was having the second cop holding a shotgun. You wouldn't consider a man pointing a shotgun at you as "drawn down on"?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Sir Robert Peel, founder of the London Metropolitan Police and considered to be the father of modern policing wrothe these proinciples down in 1829. They remain valid todaty, just like our Constitution. Note numbers 4 and 6 and you may understand why approaching every citizen you stop with a draw handgun or shotgun is not the best policy.

Sir Robert Peel's Nine Principles of Policing

PRINCIPLE 1 “The basic mission for which the police exist is to prevent crime and disorder.”

PRINCIPLE 2 “The ability of the police to perform their duties is dependent upon public approval of police actions.”

PRINCIPLE 3 “Police must secure the willing cooperation of the public in voluntary observance of the law to be able to secure and maintain the respect of the public.”

PRINCIPLE 4 “The degree of cooperation of the public that can be secured diminishes proportionately to the necessity of the use of physical force.”

PRINCIPLE 5 “Police seek and preserve public favor not by catering to the public opinion but by constantly demonstrating absolute impartial service to the law.”

PRINCIPLE 6 “Police use physical force to the extent necessary to secure observance of the law or to restore order only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient.”

PRINCIPLE 7 “Police, at all times, should maintain a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.”

PRINCIPLE 8 “Police should always direct their action strictly towards their functions and never appear to usurp the powers of the judiciary.”

PRINCIPLE 9 “The test of police efficiency is the absence of crime and disorder, not the visible evidence of police action in dealing with it.”

TNX UB

Haven't seen that since I left the LASD Academy. 

OLG

[Seamus McGillicuddy]

I have to agree with those who’d feel nervous about having their partner behind them with a SG. The position of the first officer at the driver’s window certainly impairs the ability of his partner to provide cover and assistance with a scattergun.

 

Seamus

[Carolina Gunslinger]

2 hours ago, Seamus McGillicuddy said:

I have to agree with those who’d feel nervous about having their partner behind them with a SG. The position of the first officer at the driver’s window certainly impairs the ability of his partner to provide cover and assistance with a scattergun.

 

Seamus

Do you have any idea what the pattern is like at that distance? Surgically tight. Half dollar maybe. I could shoot a cigarette pack held by the thumb and forefinger out of your hand and you'd still be able to pluck your nose hairs. So many folks know much that isn't so.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Some of the videos I have seen show the 'Partner' firing multiple rounds (sometimes 8-12) and not

hitting the criminal, who is shooting back.

 

I'd feel safer with a Partner using a scattergun (and maybe using slugs or 00) than a Partner

who is 'spraying and praying'.

 

The video above by Kit Cool Gun is really kinda sad, for lack of an appropriate word.  

While the Perp is taking away one officers pistol, it appears the other officer is trying

to shoot him with a taser.  One of those officers was shot and almost died.

 

Well, I was just wondering why the SG wasn't carried (in those videos I have watched) and some of you have supplied

the answer(s).   Thanks.

 

..........Widder

 

[Carolina Gunslinger]

5 hours ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Some of the videos I have seen show the 'Partner' firing multiple rounds (sometimes 8-12) and not

hitting the criminal, who is shooting back.

 

I'd feel safer with a Partner using a scattergun (and maybe using slugs or 00) than a Partner

who is 'spraying and praying'.

 

The video above by Kit Cool Gun is really kinda sad, for lack of an appropriate word.  

While the Perp is taking away one officers pistol, it appears the other officer is trying

to shoot him with a taser.  One of those officers was shot and almost died.

 

Well, I was just wondering why the SG wasn't carried (in those videos I have watched) and some of you have supplied

the answer(s).   Thanks.

 

..........Widder

 

Me too. The presence of the shotgun would have likely ended things right there. Nice solid buttstroke to the head when the guy began to resist and step back in a fluid motion to ready for a muzzle strike. If that didn't rouse him the 00 Buck would. The presence of the shotgun would likely have deterred escalation.

 

I agree that cops are alarmingly not gunfighters anymore except maybe for the ultra swat cops with fifty pounds of armor, ten buddies, and a machine gun. They seem to have slipped into the mindset that they are the baddest thing in the valley of the shadow without the training to back it up. Maybe Police training should include handgun hunting of wild boar. That way they'd learn to deal with something not responding to one or two hits and maybe stay in the fight. That video was pretty pathetic as far as tactics and marksmanship. He should never have made it back to the car. Betty Shelby did the right thing in shooting the offender dead outside the car. When the taser failed, and they were physically outclassed, the fight was with batons at that point. When they lost the ability to maintain hands on distance and control, the guns should be out and trained. If he reaches for something with guns pointed at him with orders to stop, he dies.

 

When the second officer hit the deck why did he not shoot at the perp under the car? At that point I am down for anything that takes the perp out of the fight for good. My partner's been shot. I need to convert the perp to horizontally incapacitated and help him. Only thing that registers in that situation. 

 

The sad reality is that the police have to let so much happen in order to do something so they aren't charged, tried, and convicted by racist liberal snowflake fear monger media and PC apologist DA's trying to appease the mob. 

[Red Cent]

"You wouldn't consider a man pointing a shotgun at you (emphasis mine) as "drawn down on"? "

 

I would guess that shotgun would be at low ready or thereabouts. Maybe I am being naïve, but unless someone is causing the officer to point the gun, I don't think so. 

 

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

6 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Me too. The presence of the shotgun would have likely ended things right there. Nice solid buttstroke to the head when the guy began to resist and step back in a fluid motion to ready for a muzzle strike. If that didn't rouse him the 00 Buck would. The presence of the shotgun would likely have deterred escalation.

 

I agree that cops are alarmingly not gunfighters anymore except maybe for the ultra swat cops with fifty pounds of armor, ten buddies, and a machine gun. They seem to have slipped into the mindset that they are the baddest thing in the valley of the shadow without the training to back it up. Maybe Police training should include handgun hunting of wild boar. That way they'd learn to deal with something not responding to one or two hits and maybe stay in the fight. That video was pretty pathetic as far as tactics and marksmanship. He should never have made it back to the car. Betty Shelby did the right thing in shooting the offender dead outside the car. When the taser failed, and they were physically outclassed, the fight was with batons at that point. When they lost the ability to maintain hands on distance and control, the guns should be out and trained. If he reaches for something with guns pointed at him with orders to stop, he dies.

 

When the second officer hit the deck why did he not shoot at the perp under the car? At that point I am down for anything that takes the perp out of the fight for good. My partner's been shot. I need to convert the perp to horizontally incapacitated and help him. Only thing that registers in that situation. 

 

The sad reality is that the police have to let so much happen in order to do something so they aren't charged, tried, and convicted by racist liberal snowflake fear monger media and PC apologist DA's trying to appease the mob. 

I’m not aware of any law enforcement agency that teaches a “solid buttstroke to the head” as a defensive tactic. 

[Carolina Gunslinger]

When you start wrestling over a handgun, it's quite simple: Win.

I'm not defending anything at that point, I'm on offense. Induce compliance or incapacitate.

Policies and training in place at that agency obviously worked out really well. Winning strategies all around.. 

 

Probably don't teach muzzle strikes either, but then again they appear to be really good at the basics...

[Dantankerous]

UB,

 

Do any of those apply when dealing with an Antifa mob?

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

6 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

UB,

 

Do any of those apply when dealing with an Antifa mob?

 

Of course #6.Just as with any violent mob. You give them an order to disperse and then do what's necessary.