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Ruger Old Army - short-stroked?


Chief Rick

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Not knowing the difference between the internals of the ROA & the other Ruger single action revolvers, can the ROA be short-stroked (reliably) like the other Ruger single action revolvers? 

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This missive has no real bearing on the question posed by the OP.  As such, may and probably should be ignored by the masses.  Simply stated ...... Why Bother??  To accomplish what end??

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3 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

This missive has no real bearing on the question posed by the OP.  As such, may and probably should be ignored by the masses.  Simply stated ...... Why Bother??  To accomplish what end??

Because enquiring minds want to know. 

 

Why can't people just ignore posts they have no intention of contributing pertinent information to?  To accomplish what end???

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As an additional, the answer is YES a Ruger Old Army can be Short Stroked.  The basic lock-works of the Old Army are the same as the Ruger "Three Screw" (First Ruger Single Action).  It is possible to cut/weld the hammer with Super Blackhawk hammer and lower it (been done) and add a Shorter Stroke.

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1 hour ago, Chief Rick said:

Not knowing the difference between the internals of the ROA & the other Ruger single action revolvers, can the ROA be short-stroked (reliably) like the other Ruger single action revolvers? 

 

Not if you want it to be a percussion revolver.  You would need to put thumb bustingly heavy hammer springs in it to overcome the shorter hammer travel.  If you wanted it to be a cartridge revolver only, it could be done.  But not in kit form.  You would have to find a gunsmith who would be interested in doing a one-off project and modify the action, which is not the same as the Vaquero.  (Like CC said, it's like the 3-screw Blackhawk)  I don't think you'd find any takers because if he slipped up anywhere along the line, replacement parts are difficult to find and relatively expensive. 

George Baylor has had his ROA's modified about as far as can be done, and still be reliable percussion revolvers... (see his articles in the Chronicle)

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What really needs to be asked is when are they running another batch of ROA? We don't need another configuration of the bearcat or the new Vaquero shortened to a two inch barrel and chambered in .41 Magnum. Return to us the ROA...and don't screw with it and make it new some how, unless you're going to short stroke it...from the factory...and lighten the triggers... that'd be cool. 

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8 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

 

As an additional, the answer is YES a Ruger Old Army can be Short Stroked.  The basic lock-works of the Old Army are the same as the Ruger "Three Screw" (First Ruger Single Action).  It is possible to cut/weld the hammer with Super Blackhawk hammer and lower it (been done) and add a Shorter Stroke.

I've seen a couple with the SBH hammers. Thanks for the info as to the similarity between the original Ruger's.

 

I'd wondered if the difference (hardness) between a primer in a cartridge and a cap could/would cause reliability issues with a short-stroked ROA.

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8 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

What really needs to be asked is when are they running another batch of ROA? We don't need another configuration of the bearcat or the new Vaquero shortened to a two inch barrel and chambered in .41 Magnum. Return to us the ROA...and don't screw with it and make it new some how, unless you're going to short stroke it...from the factory...and lighten the triggers... that'd be cool. 

Along these lines, could a ROA be built on the New Vaquero action, albeit without a transfer bar and with the proper hammer? 

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8 hours ago, McCandless said:

 

Not if you want it to be a percussion revolver.  You would need to put thumb bustingly heavy hammer springs in it to overcome the shorter hammer travel.  If you wanted it to be a cartridge revolver only, it could be done.  But not in kit form.  You would have to find a gunsmith who would be interested in doing a one-off project and modify the action, which is not the same as the Vaquero.  (Like CC said, it's like the 3-screw Blackhawk)  I don't think you'd find any takers because if he slipped up anywhere along the line, replacement parts are difficult to find and relatively expensive. 

George Baylor has had his ROA's modified about as far as can be done, and still be reliable percussion revolvers... (see his articles in the Chronicle)

Seeing yours is what got me to wondering what could/has been done. 

 

I really like the look with the SBH hammers. 

 

Maybe add a set of conversion cylinders...

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Chief,

 

You can run percussion guns fairly light.  Not quite as light as a Suppository shooter though.  There has to be enough Main Spring to contain the Cap on the nipple through the ignition cycle.  With too light main springs, at ignition the cap will come off and drive the hammer back, and in some cases, drive it back hard enough to re-cock the gun.  There are practical limits with percussion guns.  Biggest bang for the buck would be to eliminate as much drag as possible in the action.  Smoooooth equals fast.  McCandless is quite correct, Capt. George Baylor probably has the trixest ROAs around.  Now he is playing with Colt pattern guns.

 

Actually yes.  It is possible convert a NMV to percussion.  One just needs look at the Uberti '73 look alike.  Of course, Uberti built theirs from the floor up as a Cap Gun.  Rebuilding a NMV to percussion would also be a one way ticket.  No going back to suppositories.  Plus, SASS wouldn't let you shoot in any CAS category.  Throw enough money at a project and you can pretty much do anything.

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3 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

Along these lines, could a ROA be built on the New Vaquero action, albeit without a transfer bar and with the proper hammer? 

I don't think so. You would need enough room for the ram assembly and such. Bad idea. We want the original one again. I figure I need about four of them. Maybe six.

2 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

Seeing yours is what got me to wondering what could/has been done. 

 

I really like the look with the SBH hammers. 

 

Maybe add a set of conversion cylinders...

Because then we need an FFL to muddle up our super cool BP guns. No! Bad idea. What you do after you buy it is your business. Black powder guns...now if you'd said slix shot nipples... I'd be right there with you on all that. 

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Um ..... not to be contrary (I am really), but just exactly WHY would you need room for a ram assembly??  Cylinder loading stand works a treat.  Pull the base pin, drop cylinder, load, replace, shoot .... repeat as necessary.  The actual conversion to percussion would be a mite expensive though.  Watchu mean "we" willis??  Some of us percussion shooters really DON'T LIKE rugers.

 

FFL??  What FFL??  The Ruger Old Army can be set up all day with R&D type conversion cylinders with no FFL involvement.  Does not compute.  But PLEASE don't get me wrong.  I still DO NOT like the Ruger OA.  The Ruger OA is a representative copy of ..... NOTHING!!

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8 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

 

Because then we need an FFL to muddle up our super cool BP guns. No! Bad idea. What you do after you buy it is your business. 

Ummm, isn't that how most people get conversion cylinders - after they buy the guns?

 

And since when is an FFL required to buy either?

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1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

I still DO NOT like the Ruger OA.  The Ruger OA is a representative cop of ..... NOTHING!!

 

Tried real Colt's and both Uberti and Pietta clones with both Army and Navy grips.

 

I like the ROA, because it fits my hand just like the Ruger Bisley (which is what I am currently shooting).

 

That's not to say I wouldn't like to have a pair 51's or '61's, or even the '58 Remington's with 5 1/2" or shorter barrels.  Just not in the near future.

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21 hours ago, McCandless said:

 

Not if you want it to be a percussion revolver.  You would need to put thumb bustingly heavy hammer springs in it to overcome the shorter hammer travel.  If you wanted it to be a cartridge revolver only, it could be done.  But not in kit form.  You would have to find a gunsmith who would be interested in doing a one-off project and modify the action, which is not the same as the Vaquero.  (Like CC said, it's like the 3-screw Blackhawk)  I don't think you'd find any takers because if he slipped up anywhere along the line, replacement parts are difficult to find and relatively expensive. 

George Baylor has had his ROA's modified about as far as can be done, and still be reliable percussion revolvers... (see his articles in the Chronicle)

My search isn't working.

 

Any chance you could point the way to these articles?

 

I've found his frontiersman for dummies, and a few articles on cleaning and the engraving - but nothing on mods performed.

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I'll look for his Cap'n Baylors article in the morning.  Of course if you've seen mine, you know that I had my gunsmith, Three Cut add Bisley Hammer Spurs, which just personal preference, I wanted instead of the Super Blackhawk spurs.

 

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Brass Sights by Slick Magic Guns, the Cylinder Pin modification by Belt Mountain, and Gunfighter Grips by Eagle.

Proprietary Action Work with done by Goon's Gun Works.  Mike Bracket does a great job, rebuilding and hand-fitting everything.  He deleted the trigger return spring.

Added Hammer Stops, to prevent hammer over-travel, added bolt stops and more that improves on the standard Ruger Action.  Very light springs.  No Trigger Creep.  When you get them back, the light hammer will snap every cap. Timing is such that the bolt will no longer cause the Ruger Drag Line.  Yep, I've highly recommend his work.

He is a one-man shop however, and he does everything by himself.  If he gets a set of difficult guns to work on,  (like Armi San Marcos)... he may spend a week or more just puzzling over and improving those guns for a customer, pushing back yours.  Holidays, family life, hurricanes, storms, all the normal stuff can push back your delivery date.  My advice,  if you send Mike some guns, just leave them and forget 'em.  You'll get them when they're ready, and they'll be worth the wait.

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6 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

Ummm, isn't that how most people get conversion cylinders - after they buy the guns?

 

And since when is an FFL required to buy either?

If you get them OEM supplied I'll bet it becomes an FFL transfer. We don't need anymore governing. I'm happy with them just being black powder boomers and if i happen to rethink that, then it's my choice and nobody's business. 

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ROA's...luv em'.   ..Yes a copy of nothing but who cares, they were made for single action & do the job admirably

At a recent match I used mine with real BP in an age based category along with the rifle & shotgun using smokeless..it was a hoot & I will do it a lot more..I have wolf springs, slix nipples, brass sights, glass bead sandblasted parts of the frame to give them a frosted look to go with the stainless & looks a treat, took the hammers out & heated them up &  then bent the spurs back a fraction, [ polished back up with no problems ] also use Confederate flag resin grips from Rio Grande in Colorado.

I don't use heavy loads, they work flawlessly  [ I shoot them two-handed  X Draw ] & I would never part with them..I don't need a dang short stroke even if there was such a beast ..but I reckon as MCCandles said with time & patience they could be pretty slick....YMMV

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10 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

Ummm, isn't that how most people get conversion cylinders - after they buy the guns?

 

And since when is an FFL required to buy either?

The only time a FFL would be needed is if the gun is cut and a loading gate was added .

Then it would be considered a firearm . 

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I had the pleasure of shooting recently at Uprising at swearing creek where I met McCandless. Not to mention I was runner up to him. (great match) I put lighter springs in my ROA's. But he was kind enough to give me a chance to check out the work he had done on his. "NICE". As that was the last match of my season I will be sending my hammers to Three Cut to modify. With the lower hammers they almost feel like my OMV's with the lower hammers.

 

Sgt Hochbauer 

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Hey McCandless and thank you for the mention !! The ROA is quite a beast as issued but it (like all S.A.s) can definitely be enhanced with lighter springs, "prudent" parts massaging and polishing, and the addition of certain "enhancements". 

   The explanation of what all these are (some of what McCandless has already mentioned) will be "revealed " soon so I'll stop right there .  .  . 

 

 I'd just like to say  a huge Thank You to all my customers as I've been searching for the absolute best (as far as I'm concerned) setup for every S.A. from all the makers - past and present!  My setup uses coil torsion springs which allow ( at the most basic level ) the action springs in each revolver to remain in the "sweet spot " of their working range (Freedom Arms uses this type of setup ). That allows the the overall cycle tension to remain much more constant and removes the "stacking" effect that you experience with the factory setup (even the wire springs stack, their movement is the same as the flats). This translates to a more consistent "feel" (important for the way the gun "handles"), longer parts life and the coil torsion springs should last the life of the revolver. The torsion springs are made in house with only the hand spring (a compression spring) being supplied by a vendor.  

 

   Best of all, this allows the " standardizing " of all the "like" revolvers. Not just the setup, but the springs as well. It means all Armys/Navys (no matter the make) get the same springs. All Walkers/Dragoons (no matter the make) get the same springs. Likewise with the Remington's and of course, ROA's.   "Standardizing" also has another component that customers (and myself !) will like and that would be - TIME !! All things being the same means simpler operation, faster assembly and less time on the bench!  

  Thank you again to all my customers, I appreciate you!!

 

Mike

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