SxS "split times"

[Renegade Roper]

Split times probably isnt the correct term I am looking for but I couldnt think of another term (maybe target acquisition).  I didnt want to hijack the other thread either.  Anyway, how do you practice and speed up the time between your shotgun target shots (split times) between two targets while still consistently hitting them?  Some shooters I watch it is a quick Bang Bang rather than the Bang pause Bang.  Not all of these "Bang Bang" shooters are fast shooters overall but their "split times" between shotgun targets is exceptionally fast and accurate.  How or what do I practice to decrease the time it takes between shots but consistently knock them down?  What are you looking at (bead, barrel, target)?  There are a # of videos on how to practice to load & shuck but none that I've seen on how to get faster on your targets and/or what you should be looking at or doing between loading & shucking.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.  Thanks. Roper

[August West, SASS #45079]

Do you own a timer?

[evil dogooder]

For me I use two fingers on two triggers.  If the targets are close there is physically no faster way.  Tilt your barrels in the direction of your next shot and let the recoil push you onto target.   I've timed some of the fastest shooters in the world with a skb. When done right I'm usually 2/3rds to half their split times between shots. 

 

 

 That being said the split isn't going to win you anything unless you have a fast reload.  Yes I can shoot the 2 shots faster but I'll lose to the guy who practices his reload because I don't

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

I would strongly discourage you from chasing faster shotgun splits as a way to become a better shooter. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Also worth noting, the world record for sxs Shotgun is held with a single trigger gun. 

[Shooting Bull]

28 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I would strongly discourage you from chasing faster shotgun splits as a way to become a better shooter. 

 

What Smokestack said X 1,000. If you want to work on improving your shotgun times practice shucking and reloading. Do this a thousand times or so then do it some more. “You lose with your pistols. You win with your shotgun.” That quote isn’t talking about shooting fast, it’s about reloading fast. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Although I don't shoot the SxS, this might help you.

 

If your left barrel fires first and you normally shoot the targets in a left to right order, think about

shooting at the 3 O'clock area of your 1st target.   And with the right barrel, consider pointing

at the 9 o'clock position of the 2nd target.

 

This technique could shorten your swing a few inches rather than pointing from center to center of your

targets.

 

PLEASE NOTE:  you better be on target with this method and your gain in a faster split would probably be

minimal.   And any gain you might acquire would be voided by having even ONE makeup.

 

Just curious..... What are your split times right now?

 

..........Widder

 

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Work on loading, shucking, pick ups and discards. Working or worrying about your splits is time and energy wasted. 

[G W Wade]

 Not so worried about 1-2 split times,  Just the 2-3split time    GW

[Assassin]

One bobble, one stuck case, one re-shoot, one dropped shell, all negate the fastest splits. 

As Deuce stated, work on fundamentals. 

[Renegade Roper]

Thanks.  I do own a timer and I have watched Deuces, Long Hunters, Widders (even though he uses a 97) and Lead Ringers videos.  I do practice dry fire & live fire loading & shucking.  I am not the fastest at these but I am fairly decent.  What I noticed on my videos is that there is a definite long pause as I swing from target to target & acquire the next shotgun target or even just getting on the 1st target after loading. This "pause" or split time is much longer than I would expect or see in other shooters at around my level.  So I am wondering if there is a missing piece in my technique that I need to work on in addition to the loading/shucking.  After watching all of the above videos I noticed that nobody really talks about what they are looking at after they load but before they fire the 1st shot and what they do between shots before firing the 2nd shot and shucking.  So I was wondering if that is something I am missing or that needs improvement.  My split times when just practicing the shotgun by itself are generally around .25 (the lowest I have gone is .21 on a static target) but during a practice stage they slow down to about .35 (static targets) to .40-.43 (knockdowns).  I imagine during a match they are in the .35-.45 range but dont really know since you dont get to see your individual shot times during a match.  On the videos I can definitely see the pause before the actual 1st shot even though my load is fairly decent (the gun is on target & my cheek on the stock) and the definite pause as I acquire the 2nd target.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

.1 sec saved on those splits won't win you a major championship.

 

People think that the key to success is wrapped up in trigger time. It's not. 

 

Cheers!!

 

Phantom

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

56 minutes ago, Renegade Roper said:

Thanks.  I do own a timer and I have watched Deuces, Long Hunters, Widders (even though he uses a 97) and Lead Ringers videos.  I do practice dry fire & live fire loading & shucking.  I am not the fastest at these but I am fairly decent.  What I noticed on my videos is that there is a definite long pause as I swing from target to target & acquire the next shotgun target or even just getting on the 1st target after loading. This "pause" or split time is much longer than I would expect or see in other shooters at around my level.  So I am wondering if there is a missing piece in my technique that I need to work on in addition to the loading/shucking.  After watching all of the above videos I noticed that nobody really talks about what they are looking at after they load but before they fire the 1st shot and what they do between shots before firing the 2nd shot and shucking.  So I was wondering if that is something I am missing or that needs improvement.  My split times when just practicing the shotgun by itself are generally around .25 (the lowest I have gone is .21 on a static target) but during a practice stage they slow down to about .35 (static targets) to .40-.43 (knockdowns).  I imagine during a match they are in the .35-.45 range but dont really know since you dont get to see your individual shot times during a match.  On the videos I can definitely see the pause before the actual 1st shot even though my load is fairly decent (the gun is on target & my cheek on the stock) and the definite pause as I acquire the 2nd target.

Got any video of you shooting. I gurantee that you can still cut time elsewhere. Targets vary. Work on the things that are repeatable on every stage regardless of target arrangement. Would be more than happy to look at a video and give you some feedback. If you want you can email me vids at deucestevensllc@gmail.com. 

[Caboose]

1 hour ago, Renegade Roper said:

Thanks.  I do own a timer and I have watched Deuces, Long Hunters, Widders (even though he uses a 97) and Lead Ringers videos.  I do practice dry fire & live fire loading & shucking.  I am not the fastest at these but I am fairly decent.  What I noticed on my videos is that there is a definite long pause as I swing from target to target & acquire the next shotgun target or even just getting on the 1st target after loading. This "pause" or split time is much longer than I would expect or see in other shooters at around my level.  So I am wondering if there is a missing piece in my technique that I need to work on in addition to the loading/shucking.  After watching all of the above videos I noticed that nobody really talks about what they are looking at after they load but before they fire the 1st shot and what they do between shots before firing the 2nd shot and shucking.  So I was wondering if that is something I am missing or that needs improvement.  My split times when just practicing the shotgun by itself are generally around .25 (the lowest I have gone is .21 on a static target) but during a practice stage they slow down to about .35 (static targets) to .40-.43 (knockdowns).  I imagine during a match they are in the .35-.45 range but dont really know since you dont get to see your individual shot times during a match.  On the videos I can definitely see the pause before the actual 1st shot even though my load is fairly decent (the gun is on target & my cheek on the stock) and the definite pause as I acquire the 2nd target.

 

Be sure your not waiting for the target to fall before swinging to the next one. 

[Juan Solo]

If you're having a long pause after loading to getting on the first target, you may want to work on mounting the gun so that its more or less on target as soon as you shoulder it.

[Warden Callaway]

I do a lot of video of our matches and otherwise.  With my editing software I can time down to the frame that has been 30fps. I've made up a few videos of my own performance and split out shooting from transition times. My reaction and transition times are so great I haven't even addressed splits between shots. 

[Russ T. Sites]

Make sure your shotgun can shuck shell the 1st time 100% of the time, Stage the shotgun so you can pick it up smoothly , try to keep all your moves short and compact, keep the shotgun high don't take your eyes off the shells to they are loaded( I've had the habit after shucking getting my shotgun low) After you can do everything smoothly you'll see your split time drop after practice practice practice

[Black Mike]

To answer your question from a competition shotgunner point of view. When I shoot pistol and rifle I probably focus way too much on the front sights. A few shotgunners I know don't even have a front bead on their shotguns. When I shoulder the shotgun and plant my face on the stock I am only looking at the target. If you have a consistent mount and everything is aligned you will hit what you are looking at. When I shoot clays I only look at target as well. I never see the shotgun barrel. When your eyes have to move from front bead to target you will slow a fraction. Just look and shoot. I also learned not to wait for target to fall, it will still be there if you missed. 

 

Shooting duelist pistol not not the same for me as I don't have that consistent sight plane shot to shot so I waste some time on sights but misses cost much more. I am getting better with the rifle in once I get aligned I focus more on targets hoping rifle stays put. 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

RR,

Not sure I am one to give advice and to spit out numbers but I consider myself a fairly speedy shotgun shooter and have won my share of speed double sides.  Anyway, for a number of years I did not want to leave a practice session at range without a 4 in 4 (preferably  under and around 3.8).  This seemed to always be a good number for me knowing, as you mention, that it is probably not quit that fast in main match time.  Regardless, consistency with that goal keeps me competitive in match, at least with shotgun (which helps in perhaps slowness compared to many with rifle and pistol).  When reviewing timer to check times on a run, the difference in a 3.8 and a 3.9 would most always be in first shot (includes loading of course) or third, NOT THE SPLITS.  While my times may not match up to the ultra speedsters of today, I do admit to practicing on rather small knockdowns, being over 70, and load/shuck in a more "old fashion" style. (A style I do not teach  to a new shooter but one I do not want to change at this point in my shooting.)  I will call the style the "Island Girl" method as I believe it was method that this  pretty lady and excellent CAS shooter  used when I began shooting in this discipline.  Anyway, my point, one already made by several talented double shooters, is again, splints ain't where it's at.  Truthfully, your splits are not so bad at all if knocking down target.  Is your first shot coming in under 1.5 and third under 2? Bet not.

[Shooting Bull]

11 hours ago, El Cubano said:

If you're having a long pause after loading to getting on the first target, you may want to work on mounting the gun so that its more or less on target as soon as you shoulder it.

 

 

Came here to post this.  Having a shotgun that's fitted to you and having it mounted correctly on your shoulder goes a LONG way toward having it be on target as soon as you slam the action closed. This is actually true for all your guns and speeds up transitions immensely.

[Noz]

1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

 

Came here to post this.  Having a shotgun that's fitted to you and having it mounted correctly on your shoulder goes a LONG way toward having it be on target as soon as you slam the action closed. This is actually true for all your guns and speeds up transitions immensely.

What he said!!!

[Lefty Wheeler]

I agree that transitions and load and unload is more important than split. If you take an additional .2 seconds per split that adds up to .2X2x6=2.4 seconds, how is that not important?  I feel I have the same issue, it also seems to be much greater on the second two shots.  I also would like to know what people are focused on when SXS is used on the second target. 

[Shooting Bull]

23 minutes ago, Lefty Wheeler said:

I agree that transitions and load and unload is more important than split. If you take an additional .2 seconds per split that adds up to .2X2x6=2.4 seconds, how is that not important?  I feel I have the same issue, it also seems to be much greater on the second two shots.  I also would like to know what people are focused on when SXS is used on the second target. 

 

 

Please don't misunderstand.  Yes, 2.4 seconds is important.  But before you try to save those seconds there are MANY other ways to save even more time than that.  Until you're missing out on overall titles by less than 2.4 seconds you should be concentrating on those other things.

 

But I will give you a couple of things to think about.  I believe what's already been mentioned about fit and shoulder placement is the #1 thing slowing shooters down with the shotgun.  Get those things right first and foremost.  The second thing I believe slows up shotgun shots is your eyes.  Finding that next target and getting your bead on it as fast as possible has as much to do with your eyesight as it does with moving the gun and pulling the trigger.  Get yourself a Brock string and strengthen your eyes.  All your times will improve.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Lefty Wheeler said:

I agree that transitions and load and unload is more important than split. If you take an additional .2 seconds per split that adds up to .2X2x6=2.4 seconds, how is that not important?  I feel I have the same issue, it also seems to be much greater on the second two shots.  I also would like to know what people are focused on when SXS is used on the second target. 

Taken in a vacuum... You're correct.

 

One makeup and your gains are gone.

 

Risk/reward

 

I encourage all those in my category to strive on saving those 2.4 seconds.

 

[August West, SASS #45079]

O.K.  You've got a timer.  Great!!!  The graphic shows the 'Splits' that we've paid attention to in practicing the shotgun.  In order to get these numbers, start with gun in-hand and, at the buzzer, fire four shots at knock-down targets that are set up.  'Loading' is time to the first shot your timer records.  'Unloading' is derived by taking the time between the second and third shots minus the 'loading' time that was established by your first split.  When you observe all these times -- Loading, 1st shot, 2nd shot, unloading, loading, 3rd shot -- you'll know immediately where your practice time should be spent.

 

Personally, if I may, your 'between shot times' are quite fast already.  When I first started observing my splits, my between shot times for the double gun were usually 0.5 seconds.  They still are about that amount of time.  We think of a shotgun re-engagement as half a miss in terms of time, therefore strive to never miss shotgun targets.  So, relative to your splits, mine are slower.

 

The 'split' that turned out to be very important was the amount of time it took to 'unload' the gun.  When I first started practicing, that was a full two seconds, or more.  These days, it sometimes happens close to one second, but 1.5 seconds is more typical until warmed up.  Duece  has the most wonderful video where he has generously shared his technique for unloading the double gun.  My hat is off to him.  The essence of his technique is to get his off hand off the gun, and to his shell belt, as quickly as possible.  He ends up shucking the gun with one hand.  I practiced that diligently for many weeks and ended up with tennis elbow for my efforts.  YMMV (his sure does!!!)

 

Billy Boot's words are iron!!!!  

 

Let us know what your entire 'split picture' looks like.  Long before you share it with us, you'll clearly see where your practice time ought to be allocated.

 

Hope this helps!!!!!!!

 

BTW, great discussion!!!!!

[El Muerto Negro]

RR,

I would send Duece a video and see what he has to say. On my end I dont worry about splits i only practice loading and unloading. Most time gained and lost there. I would also be careful judging your own video I always feel like I'm shooting slow and have a harder time seeing my flaws. Lastly look down the barrel and trust your on target. 

 

EMN

[Rancho Roy]

I recently started shooting trap. Just about anyone I speak to about target aquisision says to not look at the front sight. It is ALL about shotgun fit. If the shotgun fits right, it will hit where you are looking....both eyes open.

 I'm sure this same philosophy has some bearing on hitting huge metal targets that aren't moving a few feet in front of us.

 So, if the gun fits, get it to shoulder and have at it!

 I'm impressed that someone that shoots as well as Renegade Roper is interested in getting even better. I've had the pleasure of shooting with her many times. I can only hope to perform as well as she does! You go girl!

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

I'm not the fastest with splits either, but I went a whole year without a makeup at major shoots,,, and no, I'm not that slow either

 

[Tennessee williams]

18 hours ago, Lefty Wheeler said:

I agree that transitions and load and unload is more important than split. If you take an additional .2 seconds per split that adds up to .2X2x6=2.4 seconds, how is that not important?  I feel I have the same issue, it also seems to be much greater on the second two shots.  I also would like to know what people are focused on when SXS is used on the second target. 

  I would think on six shots that math may not add up right unless I am mistaken. Most of the time a sxs shooter when they say split, they are talking about the time between 1st two, 2nd two, and 3rd two. The time between 2-3, 4-5 would be belt shuck and reload time.

That means there are 3 splits @.2 each for a total of .6 not 2.4 

Even if you are talking between every shot, there only would be 5 on 6 shots at .2 for a total of 1 second not 2.4

Unless my math is wrong....

[Lefty Wheeler]

I am thinking between 1st and 2nd and time between 3rd and 4th. Trying to save .2 seconds times two sets of four targets on six stages.  

[Tennessee williams]

I gotcha. Thought you were figuring a six kd stage. Thats what I get for thinking, but here goes again. The way I look at it is this. If my splits are .20 and the time I take for first shot is 1.5 to 2 and the time to shuck and load is 1.5 seconds where will my best effort at practicing to reduce my time by 10 percent be? My splits to save .04 or my first shot and shuck and reload for .30-.35? 

[Major E A Sterner #12916]

Having the honor to shoot with Roper a lot, the one things no one has mentioned is that the shotgun is a pointing firearm, a lot of people take too much time aiming at the shotgun targets, When the bead is moving from target 1 onto target 2 you don't stop your swing and aim, You shoot when you see the bead about 1/4 of the way into the target. I'm not the fastest shooter, but that's one thing I've learned for shooting and hitting the shotgun targets quickly. My biggest problem is remembering to pull the trigger quickly...

[Amarillo Rattler]

A suggestion from my USPSA days (15 + years ago),

When the 1st shot trigger breaks, shift your eye to the second target, then follow with the front sight and break the second shot.

 

Amarillo Rattler

[Cowboy Junky]

If I dump rounds into the berm I can get .16's and stuff but in a match it's slower than that because IF I miss it's 2 seconds to reengage. So the average is probably more like .2, .23????? Maybe? So you take all those .04's and add them up and they aren't going to do much...……but if you miss you 1 target you virtually washed the advantage away from rushing the splits.