Trailrider #896 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Disclaimer: I have never been to Bordertown, and have NO dog in that discussion. There has always been somewhat of a controversy in SASS between "fast and close" and "farther out and accurate". While I prefer the latter, I don't have any problem with the former. However, with the targets up close, the placement and orientation of the steel is critical if ricochets and injuries are to be avoided. Targets should be oriented so they are tipped slightly, with the top of the target closer to the shooter. A number of years ago, I attended matches where one stage called for the shooter to sit in a "outhouse" with the door open. The target was about six feet in diameter (round), and was about three feet in front of the door! The shooter was to "dump" both his sixguns at the target. I thought surely I was going to get shot with my own bullets! It happened to have rained pretty heavily, so there was a fairly large puddle right under the target. Being younger and gamier (didn't take a shower that morning ), I went ahead. I was pleasantly surprised to find that all my shots ricocheted straight down, kicking up water just in front of the target. How did that happen? The target was tilted forward slightly, deflecting the bullets downward! This is the way all steel targets should be oriented. It doesn't take much tilt to effect this, whether from "ball" rounds or shot. Just saying... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 That is the way Bordertown targets are set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 You are so right, target quality, angles are important. That being said the worst splatter I have ever seen has nothing to do with placement. My Mom stopped by a match one time to watch my wife and I. She caught pretty much what was 75% of a bullet off a rifle target that was 25 yards away and she was roughly 20 yards off the line so lets say it came back 40 yards, hit her in the temple and knocked her off her feet. Being on a heavy dose of blood thinner due to mechanical heart valves there was a lot of bleeding. Upon inspection the target was a piece of diamond plate, probably cut up dock plate. If I were to ever get a wild hair and start another club it would be AR500 or nothing for me. That being said it can be very hard for clubs to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warden Callaway Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 When the club moved to a new range, they inherited a bunch of shot up mild steel targets. We've tried to rework them but still they are cratered badly and prone to splatter. We made great progress this past season upgrading our targets to AR500. It may take another year to replace the rest but the worst ones have been pulled from service. Another problem we have is that we have a common firing line with no barrier between stages. You're more likely to be hit by lead from another posse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles B. Gatewood SASS #48517 Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Some of the worst splash back I've seen are shotgun targets that sit on the ground. My former home club had this issue until we put all the SG targets on legs which virtually eliminated the splash back. CBG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 At a recent two day match with steel that was a good distance out, a friend of mine took a piece of lead in the head that went right through his hat and embedded in his scalp. I literally had to dig the piece out of his scalp with a knife. He wasn't alone. All of us took shots of lead that day. I sometimes shoot at a club that has really close steal and can't remember ever getting hit there. While I personally prefer targets to be further out, the distance is certainly not the main factor in lead splatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I have been 'hit' more from SG splatter than any other. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I've got a permanent divet in my sternum from a mostly intact round taking me out. So I'm a little more cautions than some. If the range is dangerous walk away. If you don't feel safe don't shoot. I have left matched where there was too much splash back. This is a hobby and not worth getting hurt over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 At some point I hope this discussion morphs into why it's important to have good quality eye protection. There, I just did it. I have been hit by back splatter from pistol, rifle, and shotgun from what I would postulate is every normal and reasonable SASS target distance imaginable and then some over the years. I tend to agree that angle is more important in mitigating back splatter then distance is. I have shot at various clubs where the targets are close and big but they're angled properly and the issue is very minimized. I tend to spot a lot so that puts me closer to the firing line while the shooter is live. That could be part of being hit. I just consider it a hazard of the game of which we should all be aware by now and act accordingly as best as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted October 30, 2018 Author Share Posted October 30, 2018 I've had more splash back from shotgun targets at various clubs. When I'm spotting, and a shotgunner is up, I generally hold my arm across my face...just in case! I wear shatterresistant glasses, but still... I didn't get into target surface condition as a factor in splashback, and I should have. So, let's hear it for AR500! May be expensive, but so are lawsuits! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheriff Langston Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 My eyes are my biggest concern. Splash does not concern me much (I may be naïve) however I've taken to wearing safety "goggles" over my prescription glasses. They are yellow tinted, I look pretty cool I think I believe a mandatory minimum ANSI standard for protective eyewear, whether or not you wear prescription spectacles, would be a good idea. Regular eyeglasses have no side protection. Having said all this, I have never heard of anyone having an eye injury in my short SASS career; but most of us only have two eyeballs. Sheriff Langston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Null N. Void Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 I don't have access to it, but someone on the wire might. There is a report that was done on splatter and most of it goes out in a 20 degree cone. The problem is that if that cone intersects with a support structure, it can ricochet straight back at the firing line. The worst I've had were 8 inch knockdown plates with a flat plate that formed a 90 degree angle and were shot with pistols. The splatter hit the flat plate on the stand and came straight back to the line instead of impacting into the ground. The take away from the report and experience is that targets should be oriented so that the people are not in the 20 degree cone or something (hay bale, barrel, etc.,) should be placed to intercept the splatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yul Lose Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 Lead splatter is a part of our game. We can mitigate it to a certain degree but it’s still going to happen. At the Western Divisional a couple of weeks ago I got hit with a pretty good sized chunk of lead while standing up at the line listening to the stage instructions. Those stages are separated by a dirt berm about 15 feet high. At Escondido where the two stages are right next to each other splatter from one stage or the other hits the other posse to some extent. At Dulzura the shooters down below the Cowboys stages complain that they can hear lead splatter on the cover of their bay. It’s going to happen when you shoot steel targets with lead bullets. Think of the damage we could do with jacketed ammo!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Crimes Posted October 30, 2018 Share Posted October 30, 2018 The SASS ranges in Australia are going thru a big shake up with targeting. In short no metal stands or supports for the targets (or they are covered by wood) and all the targets need splatter shields over and to the sides (think a big set of eyebrows over all the targets). I will try and get a photo of what I mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tex Jones, SASS 2263 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 28 minutes ago, Major Crimes said: The SASS ranges in Australia are going thru a big shake up with targeting. In short no metal stands or supports for the targets (or they are covered by wood) and all the targets need splatter shields over and to the sides (think a big set of eyebrows over all the targets). I will try and get a photo of what I mean. Any reason/s? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 1 hour ago, Tex Jones, SASS 2263 said: Any reason/s? That's where most of the splatter comes from Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 how about targets somewhere between close and far, but still big? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: how about targets somewhere between close and far, but still big? Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Crimes Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 To give you an idea of what I mean. All the targets in this pic are now banned/to be changed in Australia. There are exposed metal frames, there are no spalsh guards, some inspectors even insist the targets need to be swinging, yes believe it or not there are inconsitencies in how our range reulations are interpreted I will get some photos of the eyebrows next time I am out and show you. Why? because it apppears there is a one size fits all set of range regulations and the rules are the same for full power jacketed ammo as for lower power lead proj sports. I know of one SASS range here that had 7 of its 8 SASS ranges closed over a year ago and still can only operate one range while the works are planned, approved and then money saved to pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Null N. Void said: I don't have access to it, but someone on the wire might. There is a report that was done on splatter and most of it goes out in a 20 degree cone. The problem is that if that cone intersects with a support structure, it can ricochet straight back at the firing line. The worst I've had were 8 inch knockdown plates with a flat plate that formed a 90 degree angle and were shot with pistols. The splatter hit the flat plate on the stand and came straight back to the line instead of impacting into the ground. The take away from the report and experience is that targets should be oriented so that the people are not in the 20 degree cone or something (hay bale, barrel, etc.,) should be placed to intercept the splatter. I remember reading that report and seeing high speed video of cast bullets hitting steel. Another source of splatter are the hex head bolts used to secure the target to the stand. Rebar target stands are also great generators of splatter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantankerous Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 58 minutes ago, Major Crimes said: To give you an idea of what I mean. All the targets in this pic are now banned/to be changed in Australia. There are exposed metal frames, there are no spalsh guards, some inspectors even insist the targets need to be swinging, yes believe it or not there are inconsitencies in how our range reulations are interpreted I will get some photos of the eyebrows next time I am out and show you. Why? because it apppears there is a one size fits all set of range regulations and the rules are the same for full power jacketed ammo as for lower power lead proj sports. I know of one SASS range here that had 7 of its 8 SASS ranges closed over a year ago and still can only operate one range while the works are planned, approved and then money saved to pay for. Government regulators at work. Gotta love that. Making everybody's life better. Keeping us safe from ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Just now, Dantankerous said: Government regulators at work. Gotta love that. Making everybody's life better. Keeping us safe from ourselves. Wish someone would figure out that occasionally we need protection from over zealous regulators that just want to justify their existence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Crimes Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 This will give you an idea . Eventually the ones on the right have to be converted like the ones on the left. I don't know what happens with the Texas Star? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 17 minutes ago, Major Crimes said: This will give you an idea . Eventually the ones on the right have to be converted like the ones on the left. I don't know what happens with the Texas Star? cut a shallow a shallow groove into a board so that the arm that holds the plates will fit into it but not so deep that the arm is flush with the surface.. Secure it from the backside with a couple of straps made from plumbers tape. If it wants to turn because the arm is round a dab of caulk or coarse sandpaper folded in half with the rough side out would help keep it from moving. You could also do something similar to the target stands. Don't know if they are available down under but scrap dunnage or wood pallets could be an inexpensive source of the lumber. If it was permitted I would line the insides of the wooden frame around the targets with tire tread. It would adsorb the splatter and make the wood last a lot longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 11 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Why? Why not? Big and close has its plusses and minues So does far and small. Medium and big sorta splits the difference and takes the best of both while minimizing the problems. Not an ideal solution, but perhaps it's one that would could be agreeable to most people as an equitable compromise. Not so close as to be dangerous, far enough to be a slight challenge, perhaps, but not so far and retaining the larger size so as to not create a disadvantage that discourages people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 1 hour ago, H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619 said: Why not? Big and close has its plusses and minues So does far and small. Medium and big sorta splits the difference and takes the best of both while minimizing the problems. Not an ideal solution, but perhaps it's one that would could be agreeable to most people as an equitable compromise. Not so close as to be dangerous, far enough to be a slight challenge, perhaps, but not so far and retaining the larger size so as to not create a disadvantage that discourages people. Ah, the rub: not so close as to be dangerous. Distance is a minor, at best, contributor to a shooter being hit by splatter. Moving targets back a couple of yards will do nothing and in certain environments increase received splatter. Then there's the argument about challenge. If you push yourself in speed you'll find a signficant challenge. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Creeker, SASS #43022 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Ah, the rub: not so close as to be dangerous. Distance is a minor, at best, contributor to a shooter being hit by splatter. Moving targets back a couple of yards will do nothing and in certain environments increase received splatter. +1 I wish more folks understood this or would simply think it thru. Splatter is lead that has gone one direction at a high rate of speed; struck something poorly prepared or situated (plate, stand, ground) and is now returning toward the firing line and shooter. The above example, if moving with a mass and velocity to be harmful at three yards; is NOT going to become a gentle unicorn kiss at five yards. Nor at seven or ten. The velocity/ energy simply does not drop off quickly enough within single digits increments of distance to make any significant difference. If you are attempting to mitigate splatter from poorly situated targets with distance; you will need to increase distances to a level that morphs the game we currently play into something completely different. Efforts would be better focused on why the lead is coming back toward the shooter than from what distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 Following the manufactures guide lines is always prudent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tully Mars Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 On 10/30/2018 at 10:38 AM, Redwood Kid said: At a recent two day match with steel that was a good distance out, a friend of mine took a piece of lead in the head that went right through his hat and embedded in his scalp. I literally had to dig the piece out of his scalp with a knife. He wasn't alone. All of us took shots of lead that day. I sometimes shoot at a club that has really close steal and can't remember ever getting hit there. While I personally prefer targets to be further out, the distance is certainly not the main factor in lead splatter. Redwood Kid, Thanks again for digging it out! At least I didn't cry like a baby We were lucky no one was hit in the eye! Tully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Sin Nombre Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 3 minutes ago, Tully Mars said: Thanks again for digging it out! At least I didn't cry like a baby Tully Anytime. Sorry it was combat medic procedure and not in a sterile OR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362 Posted October 31, 2018 Share Posted October 31, 2018 You know you're a combat medic When you have seen more moons than the HUBBLE TELESCOPE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 And DON'T ask me how I know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Let me add this from Calamity Jane. Calamity's Splatter Report.doc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 Let me know if that works. I could not insert the text and it is no longer on the original Website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dusty Fiddler Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 @Allie Mo - works fine here :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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