Texas Star In Main Match Stage

[Assassin]

Yes, they are fun to shoot. I have one out behind the barn, Belle and I practice with it, about the only practice we do. Haven't got the nerve up to incorporate it into a match. Might give it a try at a monthly, doubt I would use it at Hell On Wheels. 20-30 people mad at me is one thing, 240 is another. 

[Judge'm All Duncan, SASS#67320]

42 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I’m curious how many of the “sure, use it in an annual match” folks are or have been match directors for an annual match. 

 

That's what I'm thinking Smokestack.

As a match director and stage writer for some successful state matches, I never used a Texas Star or a clay bird launcher because they never react the same with each shooter which in my opinion is not fair for anybody.

[Assassin]

Maybe it would be fun to shoot with a derringer. There's a new side match, plus practice reloading the derringer with hot loads. 

I'm up for it, I doubt others would appreciate the humor. 

[CodyMaverick]

6 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

How would it work with 6 posses with six stages and with one stage featuring the Texas Star? Would posses stack up behind the Texas Star stage? 

 

Yes I suppose it would.  If you have this kind of setup you're likely to have a bottleneck or two even without a star.  The only way to avoid it would be to write all the stages so they take about the same average time and hope there are no malfunctions.  Unless you're an exceptionally creative stage writer I think the match would be severely lacking in variety.

[CodyMaverick]

2 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Our stages are all in a line so there can’t be any down range movement and cease fires on all stages need to be called if there is.

 

With this limitation I would say a star would be out of the question unless it's a one posse match.

[Too Tall Bob]

1 hour ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I’m curious how many of the “sure, use it in an annual match” folks are or have been match directors for an annual match. 

It doesn’t take much to clog up the flow. Think about it - average stage shooting times of 28 - 30 seconds with a total of 70 - 90 seconds from the time shooter leaves loading table till they reach ult?  Now that becomes 2x when you add in star reset time etc.  Even more as folks become tired. Then, throw in the shut down of all stages because a down range is called because all stages are in a line.  Now you have re-start up time added in for all 6 posses on top of everything else Time builds like stop and go traffic at rush hour. Save it for a side match and have fun with it. 

Just my $.02

[Carolina Gunslinger]

2 hours ago, Branchwater Jack SASS #88854 said:

If you choose to use it, be sure that you have spare springs, brackets, whatever... because if it can break, it might when you don't want it to.

 

It would be worse if, halfway through the shoot, you can no longer get all the plates on the star...

Depending on the size of the match a spare star as well as spare parts is in order. A lot faster to move a whole new star into place while you repair the broken one and test it. Par for the course in a big match. 

2 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I’m curious how many of the “sure, use it in an annual match” folks are or have been match directors for an annual match. 

You have to respect the time it adds to a stage, but you cannot be afraid of innovation. 

1 hour ago, Judge'm All Duncan, SASS#67320 said:

As a match director and stage writer for some successful state matches, I never used a Texas Star or a clay bird launcher because they never react the same with each shooter which in my opinion is not fair for anybody.

Advertise the Star or bird launcher in the match booklet and put the burden on the shooter to bring enough power in their loads to activate the prop. Mouse fart shot shells and handgun cartridges are not the Match Director's problem. The competitors are fairly warned ahead of time and it's on them. 

2 hours ago, Red River Ray SASS#33254 said:

I will tell you this Mule Camp the GREAT southeastern  regional used a star darn year every year I shot it. It separated shooters like long hunter from shooters who were gun manipulators. that star was set around 8 yds maybe 7.. It separated many, myself included. that match ran close to 500 shooters an it ran like a clock. I see no problem using the star in a annual.

RRR

Separation is a good thing! You should not be entitled to shoot a clean match just by showing up and taking 30 seconds to break each shot. Skill at speed must be required. 500 shooters...running like clockwork...match director knows his business and isn't afraid to cause folks to miss...match worth attending.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

3 minutes ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

 

You have to respect the time it adds to a stage, but you cannot be afraid of innovation. 

 

I am certainly not afraid of innovation. I just have enough experience to know a bad idea when I hear one. 

 

I am am not trying to discredit your opinion in any way, but I am curious, have you written and run an annual match?

[Carolina Gunslinger]

3 minutes ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I am certainly not afraid of innovation. I just have enough experience to know a bad idea when I hear one. 

 

I am am not trying to discredit your opinion in any way, but I am curious, have you written and run an annual match?

Sass is my shooting sport that I just shoot. I have run idpa matches before with fifty shooters plus. When I took that match over it was running 8 hours to get shooters through three stages indoors. I got it down to five hours and added a fourth stage and sometimes fifth stage. I've run stages at uspsa matches running over two hundred shooters through on state level. I've helped setup and run fifteen minutes to cutoff three and four gun matches where it was one long stage and over 300 rounds. I know all about the little things that add on time to a match and maintaining the same shooting problem for all competitors. I can also gameplan the match for different divisions, capacities, and skill levels.

 

The biggest match speed problem you're facing in sass is the average age of the competitor. How do you accomplish anything but stand and deliver effectively? I'm sure it involves traction pads and railings. How do you get the stages reset like lightning? Hire the local boy scout troop to reset the stages. How do you get folks away from the entitled idea that since they have no chance of winning one of the fifteen different categories that they can slowly shoot for no misses? Disappearing targets. Maybe now you can add more movement, props, and shooting problem diversity to the match.  

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

4 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Our stages are all in a line so there can’t be any down range movement and cease fires on all stages need to be called if there is.

With all your stages on a common firing line, the star can't work because you can't reset it without a cease-fire.

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

4 hours ago, Yul Lose said:

Oops, double tap

 

[Grizzly Dave]

Hey Yul, how about 2 stars, one in front of the other?  Shot that today in a special Halloween shoot that had lots of out of the ordinary stuff.  You shot it with the rifle, discarded rifle pointed into side berm and moved down range for pistols and shotgun.  several cowfolk could reset the star while the shooter was shooting pistols and shotgun.  It worked well on our posse.

 

 

 

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

I've shot the Texas Star at several annuals and like it.  It will create a bottleneck unless there is an empty stage between posse's.  To recoup from reset fatigue, a smooth fast stage after it gets folks back on track.

[Lead Monger]

2 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

Hey Yul, how about 2 stars, one in front of the other?  Shot that today in a special Halloween shoot that had lots of out of the ordinary stuff.  You shot it with the rifle, discarded rifle pointed into side berm and moved down range for pistols and shotgun.  several cowfolk could reset the star while the shooter was shooting pistols and shotgun.  It worked well on our posse.

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

Hey Yul, how about 2 stars, one in front of the other?  Shot that today in a special Halloween shoot that had lots of out of the ordinary stuff.  You shot it with the rifle, discarded rifle pointed into side berm and moved down range for pistols and shotgun.  several cowfolk could reset the star while the shooter was shooting pistols and shotgun.  It worked well on our posse.

 

 

 

Oh man! Did you see how far he had to walk after shooting two stars. Then he had to reload a revolver before finally shooting the shotgun. He must be exhausted. 

[evil dogooder]

We have used it for state a few years now.   With more positive feed back than negative

[Nutmeg Ryder, SASS # 74966]

There are ways around the slow reset of this prop, and that is a simple and quick sweep for the other guns not used on it, and reduce the shotgun on that stage.  As an example, if the star is with a rifle, put it in at a pistol range, good size dump target next to it, pistol targets in a simple sweep, double tap Nevada etc.  and if you normally do 4-6 shot gun go to two.  This cuts down anywhere from 5-10 seconds from a mid pack shooter that can then be used to reset.  Even better if the star is shot first and the rifle can be expedited, finish with shotgun so it is n hand, re setters can go as soon as the time is called.    

 

However, later in this string you note that you have a shared firing line and all would need to stop shooting for the reset,  In this case this target will turn your annual into a week long match, as I assume loading and unloading tables are also on the line, so every shooter has to stop shooting, loading and unloading, making for a potentially very dangerous situation, long stages and perhaps more problems for other shooters as the loading and unloading routines will be interrupted.  It seems us SASS shooters are creatures of habit.  

 

[Catlow4697]

My question is 

Is there a commercial star manufactured?

what I have seen over the years of shooting is a lot of stars ,bird throwers ,can poppers,moving targets that are cobbled together by well intended people out of scrap metal that should have stayed on the scrap pile.

If your pride and joy target will not function the same for every shooter then don't use it.

I have shot stars that all fell off if if shot in the frame of the wheel .

Shot gun knock downs that pulled out of the ground or turned by resetting pull ropes.

I will shoot at anything as long as the target is fair to all shooters.

At Tusco in Ohio this year they had 4 shotgun targets on stage three ,. Walnuts set a top of very small Dixie cups ,

Not very hard with a shotgun ,but more of a challenge with a handgun while shooting Josey Wales , I hope they do something simler next year .

Catlow

[Carolina Gunslinger]

1 hour ago, Catlow4697 said:

My question is 

Is there a commercial star manufactured?

what I have seen over the years of shooting is a lot of stars ,bird throwers ,can poppers,moving targets that are cobbled together by well intended people out of scrap metal that should have stayed on the scrap pile.

If your pride and joy target will not function the same for every shooter then don't use it.

I have shot stars that all fell off if if shot in the frame of the wheel .

Shot gun knock downs that pulled out of the ground or turned by resetting pull ropes.

I will shoot at anything as long as the target is fair to all shooters.

At Tusco in Ohio this year they had 4 shotgun targets on stage three ,. Walnuts set a top of very small Dixie cups ,

Not very hard with a shotgun ,but more of a challenge with a handgun while shooting Josey Wales , I hope they do something simler next year .

Catlow

People make their own stars because the target costs a bit commercially. Look up MGM targets and Red Stitch Targets. Also search Polish Plate Rack and Irish Plate Rack targets. They'll leave the shooters begging for the Texas Star.

[Jackrabbit Joe #414]

Not good for a main match & ok for side events.

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

Whenever I consider doing something a bit different I really weigh and measure why I want to do it (what is my intent for the change?). After writing stages for our State match of 200+ shooters for the last 13 years and also End Of Trail for the last couple I've learned a lot of lessons. I never write stages or set steel with the intent of challenging the shooters, its not my job to improve your skill set, and without a doubt that cannot be accomplished during a couple of stages at a match. You can achieve that challenge in other areas of the match where your top 10% can either live or die by it and your "I'm just here for a good time" shooters don't even notice it. I would personally never run a Texas star at a major match outside of side match day. Posses can be  diverse from a working standpoint and there is no way to no increase the time in between shooters with a  Texas star. There also needs to be two of them, if you have one go down (Murphys Law) then you will need to replace it or repair it during the match=potential nightmare. Monthly match?......let it rip. When folks have $500-$2000 dollars invested in your event plus vacation time I'm not risking ruining a good time just because. So many other ways to make matches more fun. 

[The Rainmaker, SASS #11631]

Love the Star, I write it into my stages a couple times a year. Definitely at the "Fun" Christmas match.

But a common firing line causes a big problem with shutting everything down while resetting. Others have said it... maybe not a good idea for a large, multi-posse match. Good luck!

 

[Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804]

I love the star. We have used it many times at monthly matches. Once you are used to it- it can  be reset almost as fast as the brass is picked up(yes it does take 2 people). The reason we have not used it in the state match is because we only have 1. As Branchwater and Deuce have said, things can break. You must have a backup for a major match.

[Captain Bill Burt]

3 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

Personal insults? Easy there. I gave the guy exactly what he asked for and he snubbed his nose at me and went on a haughty tangent of well you just don't understand sass instead of engaging on any intellectual level. If he's so talented and experienced why not share from the tome of wisdom? Everything he said goes against running a good match in my mind. Afraid of innovation, he touts achievements when backing up a reason not to instead of using his experience as a cushion while being open to the possibility of of how to, thereby keeping the match within an unimaginative comfort zone. "How do we make this work?" instead of "Nah this will never fly. Takes too long."

A state level match or above must separate out shooters by skill and ability. Why else would people travel and pay such sums of money? If shooting the match is how folks are having fun, the MD is de facto the regulator of fun.

I don't think he took a haughty tone.  He specifically said he wasn't trying to discredit your opinion.  Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but when discussing what does and doesn't work well in big matches I'm inclined to give greater weight to someone whose opinion is, shall we say, more informed. 

 

I've never met Smokestack, but I've seen his videos, trust me, he's a talented shooter, much more so than you or me, at least when it comes to Cowboy Action.  He also runs a very large, active, established club.  Therefore his opinions about what works and doesn't work carry more weight with me than the opinion of someone who has never run a SASS match of any kind.

 

I disagree with your statement about what a state level match must do.  What it must do, if it wants to grow, is give shooters a fun match.  That's hard to do since what's 'fun' is viewed very differently by Cowboy shooters. 

 

Speaking only for myself I travel to big matches because 1. I want to have fun 2. I like to see old friends and make new ones 3. I like to compete against the best and big matches tend to attract the best.

 

The job of a good match director is to put on a fun match, not challenge and separate shooters by skill.

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

6 hours ago, Catlow4697 said:

My question is 

Is there a commercial star manufactured?

what I have seen over the years of shooting is a lot of stars ,bird throwers ,can poppers,moving targets that are cobbled together by well intended people out of scrap metal that should have stayed on the scrap pile.

If your pride and joy target will not function the same for every shooter then don't use it.

I have shot stars that all fell off if if shot in the frame of the wheel .

Shot gun knock downs that pulled out of the ground or turned by resetting pull ropes.

I will shoot at anything as long as the target is fair to all shooters.

At Tusco in Ohio this year they had 4 shotgun targets on stage three ,. Walnuts set a top of very small Dixie cups ,

Not very hard with a shotgun ,but more of a challenge with a handgun while shooting Josey Wales , I hope they do something simler next year .

Catlow

Google "Texas Star for sale" and you will easily find commercial targets made to last.  I bought one for my club from a fellow in San Angelo, Texas who has since sold his design and left the business.  His targets are still in use at Founders Ranch.  I would not use them in a major match for main match stages for the reasons stated above.  I personally love Texas Stars and have no trouble shooting them clean.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Carolina Gunslinger said:

A state level match or above must separate out shooters by skill and ability. Why else would people travel and pay such sums of money? If shooting the match is how folks are having fun, the MD is de facto the regulator of fun.

Seriously 

We travel and pay the $$$ to have fun. 

The shooting is secondary to having a good time.

Just how many SASS events have you been a participant in?

OLG 

[Carolina Gunslinger]

36 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I don't think he took a haughty tone.  He specifically said he wasn't trying to discredit your opinion.  Everyone's entitled to an opinion, but when discussing what does and doesn't work well in big matches I'm inclined to give greater weight to someone whose opinion is, shall we say, more informed. 

 

I've never met Smokestack, but I've seen his videos, trust me, he's a talented shooter, much more so than your or I, at least when it comes to Cowboy Action.  He also runs a very large, active, established club.  Therefore his opinions about what works and doesn't work carries more weight with me than the opinion of someone who has never run a SASS match of any kind.

 

I disagree with your statement about what a state level match must do.  What it must do, if it wants to grow, is give shooters a fun match.  That's hard to do since what's 'fun' is viewed very differently by Cowboy shooters. 

 

Speaking only for myself I travel to big matches because 1. I want to have fun 2. I like to see old friends and make new ones 3. I like to compete against the best and big matches tend to attract the best.

 

The job of a good match director is to put on a fun match, not challenge and separate shooters by skill.

Well Bill, I don't agree with you, but the composition and thought that went into your post leaves me no choice but to respect your opinion. 

15 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Seriously 

We travel and pay the $$$ to have fun. 

The shooting is secondary to having a good time.

Just how many SASS events have you been a participant in?

OLG 

Sorry OLG, but it's just a shooting competition to me. I enjoy shooting the pistols and could very much leave the others alone. 

13 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I’d respectfully suggest that you don’t have a strong understanding of SASS. 

After careful review and consideration, you are correct. It is and only ever will be just another shooting match to me. 

[Carolina Drifter]

looks to me that its been used successfully in big matches as well as not.  As a former match director I was never afraid to try new things and I always asked what folks thought after the match and took that feedback into account.  The ole saying of "you cant please everyone" is very true.  However, that shouldn't stop you from at least trying.  With the Texas Star its one of those you either love it or hate it kind of scenarios.  Just like with some folks are with other various targets such as pop ups or even distance of targets etc.   I love a match whether big or small that uses reaction targets.  SC state match had a stage with knock down targets and it was a blast.  At the end of the day its up to the match director/stage writer to present the stages.  Each person in these positions will have their opinions on what will or will not work.  That's fine, nothing wrong with that.  But in the end as I've said before in similar topics, I feel the best matches have a mix of stages and scenarios that would meet the expectation of all shooters in various degrees.  Sure that means some folk wont like that particular stage, but likely, the folks that don't like that stage will enjoy the others and vice versa.  Something for everyone.  I'd rather have some reactive targets mixed in than to shoot 6 to 10 stages of nothing but steel plates in various sweeps. 

 

regardless, get out and shoot and have fun!

 

CD

[Doc Bonecutter, SASS #21133]

I've been a match Director for 19 years and we've had an annual Match for the last 3.  I've used Texas stars, shotgun stars, flip up targets, swinging targets, garden hose 'snakes',  a swinging bartender in front of the shooter, etc.  I think it's great to be able to do more than the usual 10-10-4 run and gun.

Having said that, the reason we can do all that is that we have a small match.  If you're running a match that has 10 stages and 10 posses, you cannot do things that require massive resets. The posse shooting a 10-10-4 standard stage will bump up against the next posse doing a bunch of resetting....and its no fun waiting.  

So, bottom line,.... it all depends on the size of the match whether you can do it.  And you will have to have extra reserve targets to keep it going when things break.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

10 minutes ago, Doc Bonecutter, SASS #21133 said:

I've been a match Director for 19 years and we've had an annual Match for the last 3.  I've used Texas stars, shotgun stars, flip up targets, swinging targets, garden hose 'snakes',  a swinging bartender in front of the shooter, etc.  I think it's great to be able to do more than the usual 10-10-4 run and gun.

Having said that, the reason we can do all that is that we have a small match.  If you're running a match that has 10 stages and 10 posses, you cannot do things that require massive resets. The posse shooting a 10-10-4 standard stage will bump up against the next posse doing a bunch of resetting....and its no fun waiting.  

So, bottom line,.... it all depends on the size of the match whether you can do it.  And you will have to have extra reserve targets to keep it going when things break.

You also bring up an interesting point, in that if the rest of your stages are similar I’m reset time for whatever reason, it can still work, provided that there is enough daylight to get all of your shooters through. 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

We used one at the California State shoot a couple of years ago with over 200 shooters. Seemed to work just fine. I didn't run the match, or a posse, but there didn't seem to be a backup at all. If I recall correctly, stages 1-6 were the typical fast stages, and stages 7-12 were the stages that required some setup, so like Smokestack says above, there was a similar amount of time for setup on each stage.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

14 hours ago, Grizzly Dave said:

Hey Yul, how about 2 stars, one in front of the other?  Shot that today in a special Halloween shoot that had lots of out of the ordinary stuff.  You shot it with the rifle, discarded rifle pointed into side berm and moved down range for pistols and shotgun.  several cowfolk could reset the star while the shooter was shooting pistols and shotgun.  It worked well on our posse.

 

 

 

Grizz-Sayz I have-ta pay to see this video. 

OLG

[Grizzly Dave]

2 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Grizz-Sayz I have-ta pay to see this video. 

OLG

 

Say what?

 

I don't know why it should say that.  That channel has never been monitized or made youtube red or whatever it is.

 

Here is a pic of the stars from a little right of the shooting position.  From where you shot it, the 2 were in line, one directly in back of the other.

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I HATE 'PUTERS-

Now the video plays just fine-Don't have a clue why I got the 'pay-me' deal before. 

OLG

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

5 minutes ago, Grizzly Dave said:

 

Say what?

 

I don't know why it should say that.  That channel has never been monitized or made youtube red or whatever it is.

 

Here is a pic of the stars from a little right of the shooting position.  From where you shot it, the 2 were in line, one directly in back of the other.

 

 

That looks fun!  I might write stage instructions calling for the stars to be shot with a rifle with unlimited reloads to shoot the stage clean.

[Grizzly Dave]

7 minutes ago, Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971 said:

That looks fun!  I might write stage instructions calling for the stars to be shot with a rifle with unlimited reloads to shoot the stage clean.

 

That's how it was written, shot with rifle, unlimited reloads one at a time to shoot clean, reloads could be off body or staged on the table.

 

It was fun!