Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 my apologies for any grief,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 Wrong instructions by the TO should result in a re-shoot for the competitor. TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goody, SASS #26190 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 I think in that instance as TO I would require a reshoot. While it remains that the shooter has the responsibility to know the stage, the shooter tried to ascertain that knowledge from a person in charge. The shooter then shot the stage the way he was instructed. This I don't feel is "incorrect coaching" that falls on the shooters lap. But a puzzler for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 Had this happen at WR with Badlands Bud. He got a reshoot...and believe it or not, Bud argued against a reshoot saying that he was ultimately responsible. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted September 6, 2018 Author Share Posted September 6, 2018 what should the TO have done tho? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 If I didn't know of the "special" instructions, I would have tried to correct the shooter... Can you be a bit more specific as to what the incorrect instructions were??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 Cowboy's word is his bond. If I give out incorrect info I'm going to man-up and make it right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 Reshoot. ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clay Thornton Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 Happened to me recently, and I got a reshoot. I walked up and while staging my firearms the TO asked me; "Does the shooter understand the course of fire?" I responded with "2-1-2 right?" He responded with "YES." Well after I shot it the spotters were all holding up a P! Well it was actually a 1-3-1. TO spoke up immediately said that he had provided the wrong direction and I had the option of a re-shoot or take my time with the P. Naturally I took the re-shoot and all was well with the world. Absolutely a re-shoot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marauder SASS #13056 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 On 9/6/2018 at 10:02 AM, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: what should the TO have done tho? First, prior to the the stage, the TO (PM) should have read/memorized the stage. When asked, if in doubt, say so and ask others or reread stage quickly. Once the mistake was made apologize and advised that a reshoot would be required. Edit, I see that it was not the TO, but the PM who made the mistake. So do as Shooting Bull mentions below. Hang down your head, Tom Dooley.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefro, SASS#69420 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: what should the TO have done tho? Mm Hu....in the OP it was the Posse Marshall that gave out the wrong info, not the TO......What should the TO have done?? That's a good one, did the PM tell him at the on deck position?? at the loading table?? when they first arrived at the stage?? or while having a chat about where to eat lunch?? Makes ya think don't it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turkey Creek Red, SASS # 22854 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 I have done this, I offered a reshoot, and in addition, I had someone else run the timer to give the shooter the opportunity to have the best stage possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinola Kid Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 Cheyenne thanks for posting this. It wasn’t clear to me at the time. But in the situation we had this weekend the pm told the shooter upon arrival to the stage. Not at the line or during the stage instructions. In this case I would not have recommended a reshoot. As this was a discussion prior to the reading of the stage instructions. I do agree with those who have posted that if given the instruction during the explanation or at the line then a reshoot option should be offered. Good topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: what should the TO have done tho? Confirm with the Posse Marshal that incorrect instructions were given. If so, offer the shooter a re-shooter. I might ask a different question though. How would the TO know more about how the stage is supposed to be shot than the Posse Marshall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noz Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 I saw what i perceived to be a flaw in the instructions concerning the target sequence as given by the TO. I told him what I saw and asked permission to shoot it as I saw it, not as the other shooters were shooting. TO gave me permission. I finished the stage to a wild out cry from some of the other shooters. They thought I deserved a "P". I was finally required to reshoot as everyone else was shooting it because my way was not the "intended method" or accept the "P" I reshot and as I was a bit upset I shot that stage better than any others at the shoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted September 6, 2018 Author Share Posted September 6, 2018 should the shooter have been told to reshoot, or take the P? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 10 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: should the shooter have been told to reshoot, or take the P? Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 Sounds like some poorly written stage instructions. Intent should not play into the reading of the well written stage instructions. TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted September 6, 2018 Author Share Posted September 6, 2018 11 minutes ago, Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 said: Sounds like some poorly written stage instructions. Intent should not play into the reading of the well written stage instructions. TB actually, they were crystal clear, the PM made the mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 OK, Then I go back to my previous statement, shooter should be given a re-shoot. PMs' are not infallible, they do make mistakes, shooter should not be penalized for an error on the part of the of the PM. TB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Double Barrel, SASS 34765 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 2 hours ago, Sinola Kid said: Cheyenne thanks for posting this. It wasn’t clear to me at the time. But in the situation we had this weekend the pm told the shooter upon arrival to the stage. Not at the line or during the stage instructions. In this case I would not have recommended a reshoot. As this was a discussion prior to the reading of the stage instructions. I do agree with those who have posted that if given the instruction during the explanation or at the line then a reshoot option should be offered. Good topic. If this is what happened in the case of the original post, then shooter should get the P . The shooter may have gotten the wrong info from the PM but had the opportunity to get the correct info at the time the stage instructions were read to everyone. If there were any questions they could have been answered at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 26 minutes ago, Double Barrel, SASS 34765 said: If this is what happened in the case of the original post, then shooter should get the P . The shooter may have gotten the wrong info from the PM but had the opportunity to get the correct info at the time the stage instructions were read to everyone. If there were any questions they could have been answered at that time. Shooter could have been the last shooter on the previous stage and if the stage instructions were read before he/she arrived, what are they to do, especially if there is not a stage book given out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted September 6, 2018 Author Share Posted September 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Buck D. Law, SASS #62183 said: Shooter could have been the last shooter on the previous stage and if the stage instructions were read before he/she arrived, what are they to do, especially if there is not a stage book given out? there was book,, as far as I know, no reshoot was required and no P was given,,, I was bystander and offered my 2 cents of,,, P or must reshoot,,, I lost track because I was getting ready to go to the loading table I was not the PM,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 1 hour ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: there was book,, as far as I know, no reshoot was required and no P was given,,, I was bystander and offered my 2 cents of,,, P or must reshoot,,, I lost track because I was getting ready to go to the loading table I was not the PM,, So a shooter got to shoot a stage in a way that no one else was allowed to shoot it? Yeah...that's a good call... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted September 6, 2018 Author Share Posted September 6, 2018 11 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: So a shooter got to shoot a stage in a way that no one else was allowed to shoot it? Yeah...that's a good call... Phantom and some don't like to shoot with me because I make calls,,,, go figure,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 6, 2018 Share Posted September 6, 2018 I was kidding... Bad call!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faygo Kid, SASS # 26408 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 Go to Wolverine Rangers Range War web site read stage 4. Scenario was read, any questions? Shooters walk away. One shooter asks PM if he could take SG from Pos. 1 to Pos 2. PM said yes. Shotgun was left pointing safely into berm. MD said that it was a no call...…..I don't think it really made a difference, it just wasn't brought up during the walk through. I was on the posse, but not the PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 27 minutes ago, Faygo Kid, SASS # 26408 said: Go to Wolverine Rangers Range War web site read stage 4. Scenario was read, any questions? Shooters walk away. One shooter asks PM if he could take SG from Pos. 1 to Pos 2. PM said yes. Shotgun was left pointing safely into berm. MD said that it was a no call...…..I don't think it really made a difference, it just wasn't brought up during the walk through. I was on the posse, but not the PM. The shooter should have got a P since the instructions say to make SG safe before moving to position 2. It's irrelevant whether someone thought or thinks it doesn't make a difference. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 38 minutes ago, Faygo Kid, SASS # 26408 said: Go to Wolverine Rangers Range War web site read stage 4. Scenario was read, any questions? Shooters walk away. One shooter asks PM if he could take SG from Pos. 1 to Pos 2. PM said yes. Shotgun was left pointing safely into berm. MD said that it was a no call...…..I don't think it really made a difference, it just wasn't brought up during the walk through. I was on the posse, but not the PM. It DID make a difference. In that scenario it’s faster to take shotgun to the next position than it is to safe it then move. Smart move by the shooter but contrary to the stage instructions. P or reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oklahoma Dee Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 I'm a big fan of reading the stage instructions myself. Then ask any questions to clarify, before heading to the loading table. I have seen and heard way too many PM's read the instructions using their words, not what is written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted September 7, 2018 Author Share Posted September 7, 2018 glad it went to the MD,,, was wondering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said: It DID make a difference. In that scenario it’s faster to take shotgun to the next position than it is to safe it then move. Smart move by the shooter but contrary to the stage instructions. P or reshoot. You're spot on! To allow a shooter to run a stage contrary to the written description is mind boggling to me. Here's the Stage: Staging: Rifle loaded with 10 rounds, staged at POS 2. Shotgun open and empty, in hands at POS 1. Revolvers loaded with 5 rounds each, holstered. gun Sequence: Shotgun ♠ Rifle ♠ Revolver Scenario: Shooter starts at POS 1, with shotgun in hands, at the ready. ATB knockdown the 4 shotgun targets, any order, make shotgun safe pointing safely into the berm. Move to POS 2 and engage the 5 rifle targets in a two separate diagonal Nevada sweeps, in an X pattern, starting on any corner target (i.e., 1,2,3,2,1,4,2,5,2,4), make rifle safe pointing safely into the berm. Move to POS 3 and engage the 5 revolver targets in a two separate diagonal Nevada sweeps, in an X pattern, starting on any corner target. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Widder, SASS #59054 Posted September 7, 2018 Share Posted September 7, 2018 9 hours ago, Oklahoma Dee said: I have seen and heard way too many PM's read the instructions using their words, not what is written. Very true. And sometimes, the written instructions are revised WITHOUT the knowledge of the shooters until they arrive on the stage and then they are informed of the changes. Sometimes, these changes are understandable, due to weather, prop failures, etc..... But sometimes, it makes you think something has been changed to 'help' someone (category) and/or become a hinderance to someone (category). just my .02 ..........Widder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted September 7, 2018 Author Share Posted September 7, 2018 I wish we had be informed on the posse of the allowance, then I wouldn't have made a fool of myself here,,, notice I never mentioned particulars,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted September 8, 2018 Share Posted September 8, 2018 Just a comment, lest it be overlooked in all of the conversation. I can't think of a situation where a P would just be dropped unless it was incorrect according to the stage instructions.. It is either a reshoot or a P. If a P is dropped and the shooter gained an advantage, it isn't fair to the other shooters unless they are all given the chance to reshoot and that could be a nightmare. As the shooter was misinformed, a reshoot offer was in order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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